an interview with james webb: disillusionment and the

© Journal of Education and Sociology, ISSN: 2078-032X, Vol. 5. No. 2. 2014 Michael F. Shaughnessy, June E. Shepherd. Critical thinking in critical care. Journal of Education and Sociology 2014; 5(2), 87-92.

AN INTERVIEW WITH JAMES WEBB: DISILLUSIONMENT AND THE GIFTED Michael F. Shaughnessy, June E. Shepherd Eastern New Mexico University (USA)

James T. Webb Ph.D., has been recognized as one of the 25 most influential psychologists on gifted children, gifted adolescents and gifted adults in the world. He has authored 18 books, more than 70 professional publications, three DVD’s and presented many research papers at conferences and conventions. In 1981, Dr. Webb established an organization named SENG (Supporting the Emotional Needs of Gifted) to provide information, training, conferences and workshops for those who are parenting, counseling or teaching gifted children. In this interview, he reflects on his latest book “Searching for Meaning: Idealism, Bright Minds, Disillusionment and Hope“ published by Great Potential Press in 2013.

1) Jim in your latest book, you discuss what could be called “existential depression”. Is there a difference between disillusionment and “existential depression” or are they one and the same? Disillusionment is not the same as existential depression, although disillusionment is probably the major cause and precursor of existential depression. In my book, for example, I note that existential depression can be precipitated by an external event, such as death of a close friend or a fire that destroys sentimental items. On the face of it, disillusionment would not seem to be a factor, but it is. In both situations we have to confront the illusion that we are in control of our world and that things around us are permanent. On the other hand, you can be disillusioned, but you can learn to accept that live involves illusions. This does not necessary have to lead to depression. Instead, it can prompt simple acceptance, mindfulness, and living in the present with a minimum of illusions that you have chosen to allow as ones you want in your life. 2) It seems that many of our bright, gifted students are quite disillusioned with our current society. How can teachers, parents, counselors best deal with this disillusionment and re-instill hope?

Almost any bright, observant, and thoughtful person would find our current society to be disillusioning. Every day, the media highlights leaders who are self-centered, dishonest, manipulative, narcissistic, prejudiced, narrow minded, or who at the least seem overwhelmed by the world problems facing them. So many members of society are focused on the superficial, and they avoid actions or thoughts that deal with key issues like global warming, the wasting of water and electricity, pollution of oceans, economic inequity, bullying, homelessness, hunger, child abuse, elder neglect, assault and murder, etc. Teachers, parents, and counselors—many of whom know first-hand about disillusionment as they try to cope with their own professional and personal burnout—can best help students by first simply acknowledging their disillusionment, and, to the extent that they are able, talk about their own disillusionment and how they try to cope with and manage it. This can help the student feel not so alone and can convey a sense of hope. It is important also to focus on idealism—the student’s idealism as well as yours and that of leaders in various causes—and to try to help the student join up with other idealists. Being in a group of like-minded idealists reduces feelings of loneliness and conveys a sense of empowerment. Change and progress has always been brought about by idealists, and all of these movements began with one or two people. If the student can’t find a similar group of idealists, at least the student can read about them in books or other media. The important thing is to nurture hope and a belief that the student is not helpless. The student cannot single-handedly change the world, but the student can do some things.

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© Journal of Education and Sociology, ISSN: 2078-032X, Vol. 5. No. 2. 2014 3) Your recommendations for hope and happiness in today’s world, for today’s gifted kids? There is a movement called Positive Psychology and an entire body of research that is referred to as Happiness Research, which has looked at happiness in various cultures as well as through research. The Positive Psychology movement, recognizing that psychologists historically have focused on problems and what is wrong with a person, decided that it makes more sense to focus on resiliency and positive aspects in life. As a colleague of mine once wisely said, “There are two kinds of people in life—those who have problems and those you don’t know well enough yet to know what their problems are.” The Positive Psychology movement and the Happiness Research indicate that it is not problems that create unhappiness or despair; rather, it is how we think about those problems. Dr. Martin Seligman, who started the Positive Psychology movement, concluded that five areas are principal underpinnings of happiness—engagement, positive emotion, positive relationships, accomplishments, and meaning and purpose. To me, meaning and purpose stem from the other four areas, and I would recommend focusing on helping youth learn to emphasize these in their daily lives. There are many specific helpful techniques to foster this, and these can be found by an Internet search for terms of resilience, gratitude, and happiness research. 4) In the U.S. it seems many of our military have experienced, what might be called “mental collapse” (p. 101). Could this contribute to some of the post-traumatic stress and the resultant mental health problems and issues that face our returning veterans? I am sure that military combat experience does change people, and sometimes leads to mental collapse, post-traumatic stress, and mental health problems that would not have occurred if the person had not experienced the disillusionment that so often occurs in active military situations. 5) In your book, you have readers review the concept of a shield- with the idea that we can create our own “shield”. Where does this idea come from and what is its therapeutic importance? The idea of a personal shield was one that I learned from a psychologist colleague many years ago. He pointed out that each of us, in our daily lives, has a shield to protect our sense of self, and that he pointed out how we can use this metaphor of a shield to examine several key aspects of how we protect ourselves and how we organize our lives to have meaning. I took his idea and have found it to be a very useful way to spur people to become more self-aware, and then to point out to them that so much of their shield was handed down to them by traditions of their parents, society, etc. Next I point out to them that they have the freedom to choose their own shield. They can decide what parts to keep and what parts to discard. 6) Your book can be helpful to a number of people from a number of perspectives-parents, counselors as well as clients. Did you intend for it to reach such a diverse audience? I really did not have a specific audience in mind except that they would be bright idealists and those who work or live with them. However, as I think of it, that is a rather broad group. Although most of my professional work has been with gifted children and adults, I did realize that idealism, disillusionment, and existential depression are not found only if those folks whom we call “gifted.” So I broadened the focus to talk about bright and thoughtful idealists, which does cover a pretty wide range of people. 7) Have you considered developing a self-help workbook of sorts to assist gifted kids in dealing with and coping with their disillusionment? No, I really have not thought about this. It is an interesting idea, though. 8) In the U.S. there have been TWO shootings at a place called Fort Hood. What does this say about the mental health services provided to our soldiers and their need for perhaps a way to deal with their disillusionment? It would be difficult for me to comment on this since I don’t know a lot of the details of the people involved. It certainly could have resulted from many other things besides just disillusionment.

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© Journal of Education and Sociology, ISSN: 2078-032X, Vol. 5. No. 2. 2014 9) Could your book be used as part of a group discussion? And who would benefit most from that? I think that the book could be very helpful in a group discussion. However, because portions of the book are very poignant, the book is likely to awaken strong feelings, self-examination, and perhaps provoke disillusionment, and that can be stressful or even painful. Discussion group leaders will need to manage the group so that the discussions do not become unbearable heavy. I would encourage the book discussion leaders to be aware of this possibility, and perhaps even to have professionals to whom they could refer students if they became upset. On the other hand, I would remind group leaders that disillusionment is often the first step toward enlightenment and positive reintegration, and thus it should not be avoided. 10) You have a positive tendency to “re-frame” the odd, eccentric, quirky behavior into possible gifted or creative tendencies. Is this intentional, or do we need to look at and examine behaviors more carefully and closely? Yes, this is intentional. As a psychologist, I have seen all too often cases where idiosyncratic, quirky, odd, or eccentric behaviors were misdiagnosed as behavior disorders. In fact, it seems to me that our society has become progressively less tolerant of differentness, and that conformity, socialization, fitting in, and mediocrity are more valued than personal innovation, creativity, and nontraditional behaviors. The percentage of the United States population given mental diagnoses and medication has risen dramatically in the last few decades, and in my opinion this is largely because of our striving for personal homogeneity. I frequently remind people that quirks are not disorders. In order for a behavior to be a disorder, it must either cause a person stress and discomfort or interfere with the person’s life in some impairing way. It is very important to examine behaviors more carefully to ascertain this. 11) A follow up- your work has such a way of “normalizing conditions. “ Is this intentional or are you simply bringing a humanity to the human condition? Both. It is very important to remember that humans are humans—not conditions or diseases. As a psychologist, the more I have worked with people, the more I came to understand that their unusual behaviors—whether quirks or impairments—were there for a reason, and often as got to know them better, I could easily understand why they were depressed or fearful or avoidant, or self-sabotaging. And the longer I live, the less judgmental of others I am becoming. 12) Could or should a checklist be constructed for gifted kids to perhaps do a self-evaluation in this realm? For positive reflection or growth? An interesting idea, though I tend to shy away from checklists because they so often are superficial. If there were a checklist, I would prefer that it be used as a springboard for discussion of the responses to the items. 13) Do people who read your book go thru different stages or emotional spaces or period of insight? Does your book help them traverse these stages? I think that they do. Certainly, people differ in their readiness to look at themselves or to contemplate their existence, and I have had people point out to me how they read a part of the book that produced one realization, but when they re-read it, they had a different and deeper realization. In fact, I often encourage people to read the book a little bit at a time, and particularly to skip around to those parts that seem more relevant or even most palatable for them right now. As François de La Rochefoucauld from the 1600s, said, “You cannot stare straight into the face of the sun, or death.” It is the same with thinking about the meaning of one’s life. Going through stages of awareness and insight is not surprising. As a therapist, I long ago realized that people gain insight as they are ready for it, and that although you can provide a setting that encourages self-awareness, you cannot bludgeon insight into others. It is like the Buddhist say, “When the student is ready, the teacher will come.” This helps makes understandable why many persons will seek counseling or therapy at one stage in their life, and then a few years later seek counseling again because they are now at a different place. I expect that it is the same with many who read my book. B a k u , A z e r b a i j a n | 89

© Journal of Education and Sociology, ISSN: 2078-032X, Vol. 5. No. 2. 2014 14) Your book seems to be perfectly constructed in terms of sequence of thought, theory and emotion- was this intentional, or did it just happen to flow that way? Thank you for the compliment. I did not intend that particular flow; I just tried to organize the book in a way that seemed to make sense and that would be engaging to the reader without being overly academic. The thought and emotion parts were easy in some ways, but difficult in others. The book is very personal for me and for several close friends, so I had a lot of real life experiences to draw upon. On the other hand, I did not want to book to be just about my own experiences, but rather a book that tied in with experiences that others have, too. So I sought a balance. Because I taught Theories of Personality in graduate school, the theory part as fairly easy, too. Some time ago, I realized that many psychologists were writing about bright and gifted people, but they did not seem to realize this. So I tried to integrate the theory with real life. I am glad that people seem to find it to be a natural and easy flow. 15) Native Americans and other racial, ethnic, minority culturally different groups- have they been disillusioned by the treatment of them? Or have they lost as a group their cultural heritage and multicultural identify? Although I think that many, perhaps most, minority culturally different groups have been disillusioned, it is difficult to talk about them all as one group because of their diversity even within a particular ethnic group. From my observation, some ethnic groups do seem to have lost their cultural identity and traditions, and are drifting as a result while they struggle to find new ways of life that give similar meaning. Others appear to cling tightly to old traditions in a clannish fashion because they then feel a sense of belongingness. An overarching notion here, however, is that traditions are illusions. Yet it is important to remember that illusions are not necessarily bad. It is difficult to think about trying to live one’s life without any illusions. The redeeming part of this is that people have the freedom to choose the illusions around which they want to organize their lives, and thus the traditions of one’s cultural group can be very grounding and helpful. 16) It seems that we go through period of malaise and depression following the loss of death of leaders we have admired (JFK, MLK, Reagan) and events such as 9/11. Do we have critical periods of disillusionment or cyclical periods of disillusionment (such as Camelot with JFK)? Yes, our country—and other countries and cultures—go through periods of optimism and idealistic hope, and then through period of disillusionment and depression. Both period are illusions; things are never as good as they seem, nor as bad as they appear. The more that we allow ourselves to become absorbed into our illusion, particularly of idealistic positive change, the more at risk we are for disillusionment and disappointment. However, hope seems to be a part of the human condition. As th the 18 century English poet Alexander Pope said, “Hope springs eternal in the human breast; Man never is, but always to be, blest.” 17) From a college or university instructor’s perspective, how is this book relevant? College is often a time when young people are away from their home and community, exposed to different people, ideas, and traditions, and begin to question their traditions and ways of thinking. As a result, disillusionment and change are very likely, and along with that can come significant angst and even depression and despair. College and university instructors need to be aware of this, if they are not already, so that they can help normalize these student’s experiences which are part of intellectual and personal growth, but which also will likely involve substantial disillusionment and rethinking of many earlier ways of being. I hope, too, that these instructors will feel comfortable in referring the student to the university counseling center and also perhaps in suggesting some readings that may help the student understand these growth experiences. 18) How does this book connect to the work of your organization? I assume that you are referring to SENG (Supporting Emotional Needs of Gifted), a nonprofit organization that I began many years ago. It is really not my organization. SENG is incorporated as a 501 (c)(3) nonprofit group that has its own board of directors. Although I served on its board for some time, I have gladly turned that work over to others, and they continue to do very well.

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© Journal of Education and Sociology, ISSN: 2078-032X, Vol. 5. No. 2. 2014 The book does, I suppose, connect with the philosophy of SENG. All of the people involved are bright idealists, and as a result many of the themes in my book would be subjects that they are familiar with. That is, they live and work in ways that focus on giving their lives meaning, and by working together, they are able to realize that they are not alone and that they are making a difference for others. 19) Can this book help gifted kids “own“or connect to their own brightness or intelligence or discovery of their abilities? I think the book can help adults and children connect to their brightness. So many people have told me that they somehow did not really realize that they were particularly bright, nor did they understand how their brightness related to so many other aspects of their lives, such as their intensity, idealism, sensitivity, impatience with mediocrity or poor quality, etc. Once they made the connection, it was as though many puzzle pieces fell into place for them, and they began to realize why they have felt so different and alone for so long in their life. After that realization, many of them found that they felt more normal, calmer, less stressed, and less depressed. They felt understood, and they understood themselves to a greater degree. 20) We need to better recognize, mentor, encourage our bright and gifted kids- How can the average teacher do this? (especially in this age of standardized testing) This is an exceedingly difficult question to answer. Most teachers tell me that they feel like they are caught and constrained by the very system that employs them. Most went into teaching because they were idealists themselves, and they wanted to influence young lives for the better. What they have found, however, is that they are simply a cog in the system that focuses so much on measurable outcomes of rote material in a linear, regurgitative fashion. The highly structured focus on scope and sequence, common lesson plans, and socialization to the norm is what teachers are held accountable for, which leaves little room for a caring teaching to mentor or encourage a student through individualized instruction. In fact, a personal relationship with a student can be a cause for criticism of the teacher or even affect the teacher’s employment. It is little wonder that our most caring and idealistic teachers find themselves disillusioned and experiencing burnout! Having said this, however, I do think that teachers can infuse at least some flexibility into their classrooms. The whole process of differentiated instruction can convey to a student a sense of caring and excitement about learning and exploration. Find what a student is passionate about, and then try to build learning off of that in ways that tie into the learning objectives that are required by the school. Learning contracts negotiated between student and teacher can allow the student to compact or skip material that has already been mastered to a passion to learn. Alternative readings for a student, rather than the same book that everyone else is assigned, can become a type of bibliotherapy that produces insight and also conveys a sense of being mentored and cared for by the teacher. When I am asked a question like this, I always think of the classic study of “Teachers Who Made a Difference,” by Professor Paul Torrance who created the Torrance Tests of Creative Thinking. Torrance surveyed gifted students several years after they graduated, and asked them to describe any former teachers who had made a major positive difference in their lives. He studied their responses to ascertain if there were common themes among those teachers who made a difference, and several themes emerged. The teachers had high expectations, yet they encouraged questioning and allowed students to explore ideas, while respecting their efforts, and they conveyed a sense that learning was exciting and good to share. The content that the teachers taught turned out to be unimportant; in most cases the students had forgotten the content. What emerged as important was the essence of a good mentorship—a sense of relationship with the student toward a common goal of learning and exploration of the world. I would also encourage educators to reach out to parents. This sounds simple, but yet it is often neglected. In the past several decades, educators and school systems have become so professionalized that we have often conveyed a sense to parents that they are unwelcome and would just be in our way. Yet parents, grandparents, friends, and neighbors have many more opportunities to be successful mentors because they have fewer restrictions on having a meaningful relationship. This is a long answer to a short question, but that is because the question is such an important one. 21) In your mind, is there a social, moral and ethical obligation to identify these students and provide for their special needs? (including their difficulties with disillusionment) B a k u , A z e r b a i j a n | 91

© Journal of Education and Sociology, ISSN: 2078-032X, Vol. 5. No. 2. 2014 My personal opinion is that we should have an obligation. Of course, we should have an obligation to meet the needs of every student. Bright, gifted, creative students, however, are all too often overlooked, neglected, and misunderstood, and even if we realize they have high abilities, the prevailing belief is that since they are bright, they can take care of themselves and have few, if any, special needs. Yet these are the students who will shape our society and our world—for better or for worse. I think it is important for educators, parents, and others to realize that no society has ever been valued for its high level of mediocrity, and yet the pressures for bright minds to conform and fit in are intense ones. 22) What have we neglected to ask? I can’t think of anything else. This has been a quite thought-provoking set of questions.

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