http://www.treptalks.com Interview with Debra Jason Transcript ... - Bitly

http://www.treptalks.com   Interview  with  Debra  Jason  Transcript     Sushant:  Hey  Treps,  this  is  Sushant,  founder  and  host  of  TrepTalks,  and  today  I'm   delighted   to   welcome   Debra   Jason   on   the   show.   Debra   is   an   experienced   marketer   and   a   copywriter   and   with   more   than   25   years   of   experience   in   direct   marketing.   And   today   I   wanted   to   ask   Debra   a   few   questions   about   copywriting   from,   really   from  the  perspective  of  an  entrepreneur  and  hopefully  try  to  get  to  learn  a  little  bit   about   how   to   communicate   my   message   in   a   way   that   captivates   and   converts   my   prospects   into   loyal   customers.   So   I   really   appreciate   your   time   today   Debra   and   welcome  to  the  show.     Debra:  Hi,  welcome,  thanks  for  having  me,  it's  a  pleasure  to  be  here.       Sushant:  Pleasure  to  have  you  here  today.  So  let's  start  from  a  very  basic  question.   You   know,   anyone   who's   watching   this   interview,   who   may   not   have   heard   about   copywriting    or  what  it  is,  can  you  explain  in  a  layman's  terms  what  copywriting    is   and  why  should  and  entrepreneur  care  about  copywriting?     Debra:   Well,   probably   the   simplest   definition   of   copywriting   is   “words”,   writing   words,   way   back   when   we   used   to   have   major   printing   presses   the   word   “copy”   came  about  because  they  would  copy  a  type  into  type  setting  and  then  copy  it  into   paper   to   print   a   newspaper   or   magazine.   So   that's   where   the   word   “copy”   comes   from  but  not  many  people  are  familiar  with  it,  but  today  in  our  content  marketing   driven   world   more   and   more   people   are   becoming   familiar   with   it.   So   why   is   it   important   for   an   entrepreneur?   Well   you   need   words   to   communicate   your   message.  Whether  it's  on  a  sales  page,  on-­‐line  or  on  your  website,  or  a  direct  mail   letter  you  send  out,  or  just  talking  with  people  one  on  one  you  need  to  have  some   expertise   on   how   to   communicate   your   message   so   that   you   can   let   people   know   how  you  can  help  them.     Sushant:  So  is  it  the  same  kind  of  thing,  so  for  example  if  a  sales  person  goes  and   makes  an  appointment  with  their  prospective  client  and  they  have  their  own  matter   or  speech  or  whatever  they  do,  if  copywriting  the  same  kind  of  thing  in  written  word   is  it,  is  that  the  same?       Debra:  You  know,  that's  a  good  point  you  bring  up,  because  what  I  tell  people  a  lot   of   the   time,   is   when   they're   thinking   about   writing,   a   lot   of   people   say   “I   have   the   ideas,   I   can   talk   about   them,   but   I   can't   get   them   down   on   paper”.   And   in   exercise   that  I  have  people  do,  is  to  say  just  what  you  explained,  pretend  you're  sitting  across   from  your  ideal  customer  and  having  a  conversation.  And  what  are  the  things  that   you   would   say   in   that   conversation?   Because   then   you   can   take   that   message   and  

http://www.treptalks.com translate   it   into   words   on   paper.   So   it's   very   important,   because   even   though   you   may   be   speaking   to   many   people,   in   essence,   you   need   to   relate   to   them   one   on   one.   So   your   example   of   a   sales   person   going   into   an   office   is   a   good   one.   If   you   just   convert  that  into  words  on  paper,  then  you'd  have  your  marketing  message.       Sushant:   So   does   that   mean   that   copywriting   has   to   be   more   of   a   conversational   language?   Or   it   can   be,   you   know,   in   other   words,   does   it   have   to   have   like   that   professional   “book”   kind   of   tone?   Or   is   it   more   effective   to   have   more   of   a   conversational  language  where  it's  almost  like  you're  talking  to  a  person?       Debra:  In  my  book,  it  should  be  like  you're  talking  to  a  person.  Now  a  lot  of  that  can   depend  on  who  your  audience  is  as  well.  For  the  most  part,  the  simpler  you  keep  it,   the  better  but  there  are  some  target  audiences  that  are  maybe  more  sophisticated  or   educated  and  using  big  language  is  what  they  wanna  hear,  but  I  would  say  that  99%   of   the   time   is   best   to   speak   in   a   friendly,   conversational   tone,   just   as   if   you   were   sitting  across  the  table  from  somebody.       Sushant:   So   let's   say   that   as   an   example,   if   we're   talking   about   digital   entrepreneurs,  entrepreneurs  who  are  mainly  on-­‐line,  what  are  some  of  the  places   that   you   can   use   the   copywriting   or   the   copywriting   language?   Of   course   a   sales   page   is   something   that   comes   to   mind,   are   there   other   pages,   like   you   know   if   I'm   writing   about   the,   about   me   page,   should   I   be   using   the   same   kind   of   language?   Like   where  is  some  of  the...     Debra:  Oh,  you  can,  you  know  if  you're  on-­‐line,  you  use  copywriting  is  everywhere,  I   mean   when   somebody   writes   a   website   that   whole   website   is   usually   done   by   a   copywriter   but   many   time,   you   know,   people   do   it   themselves.   And   that's   fine   as   long   as   you   have   a   command   for   the   language   and   understand   who   your   ideal   client   is,   and   what   their   problems   are   and   how   you   can   help   them.   So   when   you're   on-­‐line   you  have  your  sales  page,  and  as  you  mentioned  it  can  be  your  “about”  page  it  could   be   your   “services”   page,   it   could   be   your   emails,   so   copywriting   come   into   play   on   every  aspect  of  your  marketing  whether  you're  a  digital  marketer  or  not.  It's  really   your  message  and  how  you  share  it  with  the  world  that's  considered  copywriting.     Sushant:  So  basically  if  you  consider  your  website  your  on-­‐line  market  or  your  on-­‐ line  presence  as  a  business  as  a  whole,  every  message  that  you  are  putting  out  there   it   has   to   resonate   with   who   your   client   is   and   how   you're   trying   to   solve   their   problems  and  how  your  solution  fits  exactly.     Debra:   Absolutely.   So   you   know,   when   I   tell   people   when   I   work   with   clients   we   do   a  couple  of  things,  and  one  of  the  first  things  is  to  identify  your  ideal  client.  So  who   are   they,   but   not   just   the   demographics,   but   what   we   call   cycle   graphics,   their   life  

http://www.treptalks.com style,   what   do   you   know   about   them,   you   know,   what   do   you   know   about   what   they're   doing   on   a   daily   basis   and   what   are   their   problems?   So   I   call   it   pushing   your   prospects  buttons.  So  when  somebody  comes  to  your  website  for  example,  you  can   push   their   buttons   in   a   way   that   while   they're   reading   your   content,   they're   going   “yes,  yes  that's  me,  I  need  what  Sushant  has  to  offer”  or  “I  need  what  Debra  has  to   offer  and  I  better  click  on  the    button  or  click  on  the    button,  or   take   some   kind   of   action”.   So   first,   understand   who   your   client   is,   and   what   their   problems   are,   and   then   your   content   should   push   their   buttons   and   then   offer   them   a  solution,  and  a  very  important  part  is  to  make  sure  you  offer  a  call  to  action.  Many   people   forget   that   step,   but   it's   important   to   say   to   them   “email   me,   or   call   me,   or   click   on   the     button”.   So   make   sure   you   tell   them   what   you   want   them   to   do.       Sushant:   Yes   I   want   to   dig   a   little   bit   deeper   into   the   different   steps   that   you   just   mentioned  there.  But  before  that,  I  wanted  to  ask  you  a  question  that  I  believe  you   briefly  touched  on.  You  know,  as  an  entrepreneur,  an  entrepreneur  has  to  do  a  lot  of   different   things.   Do   you   recommend,   and   copywriting   is   definitely   a   skill   that   is   developed   and   developed   over   time,   is   probably   an   art   form,   do   you   recommend   that   an   entrepreneur   when   it   comes   to   copywriting   they   go   about   hiring   and   experienced   copywriter,   or   should   they,   because   they   know   about   their   products,   how  much  should  they  try  to  write  the  copy  themselves?       Debra:   Well   there   are   sort   of   two   points   of   view   on   that.   One   is,   they   do   know   their   product   or   their   service   the   best,   so   they   can   express   it   the   best,   but   I   find   there   are   a  lot  of  people,  as  I  said  earlier,  that  can  talk  about  it,  but  when  it  comes  time  to  get  it   on   paper   or   on   the   internet   they   struggle.   They   struggle   with   how   to   get   their   message  out  there  correctly.  So  there's  a  couple  of  ways  to  go  about  it  and  one  is  to   know   that   that's   not   your   strength   as   an   entrepreneur,   and   say   “okay,   I   can   spin   my   wheels,   I   can   spend   a   lot   of   time   trying   to   write   this,   but   my   time   might   be   better   spent   selling   my   product,   or   my   service,   or   doing   some   other   part   of   my   business   in   connecting   a   networking,   so   yes,   I   should   give   it   to   a   copywriter   and   let   them   do   what   they   do   best”.   The   other   option   is   they   can   write   it   themselves   and   then   contact   a   copywriter,   like   I   offer   a   copywriting   critique,   so   people   send   me   their   information,   we   talk   a   little   bit,   and   then   I   say   “okay,   here's   what   I   see   in   your   content  and  how  you  can  improve  it,  and  if  you  want  to  continue  to  write  it  yourself,   here's   some   changes   that   you   should   make   and   go   for   it”.   Sometimes   people   come   back  to  me  and  say  “you  know  what  I'm  realizing  I  really  can't  do  this,  and  I  should   hire  you,  and  have  you  help  me  out”.  So  it's  two-­‐fold  you  know,  you  can  just  try  it  on   your  own,  because  you  do  know  your  product  well,  but  there's  a  lot  of  people  that   sort  of  can't  see  the  forest  from  the  trees  so  to  speak.  And  so  it's  nice  sometimes  to   remove   themselves   from   that,   give   it   to   a   copywriter   who   then   can   convey   their   message  in  a  way  that  they  may  not  have  been  able  to  do  so  before.  

http://www.treptalks.com   Sushant:   Are   there   tools   available,   because   I   know   that   there   are   AB   testing   tools   that  people  use  for  websites  and  things  like  that,  have  you  ever  seen  a  place  where   someone   has   written   a   sales   page   or   copy   or   something   like   that   and   they   write   a   variation  of  that  and  test  out  and  see  which  one  works  better  and  then  use  that  or   tweak  it  further?  I  mean  does  that  happen  in  copywriting  or  is  that  just  more...?     Debra:  Oh  yes,  absolutely,  that's  a  big  thing  in  direct  marketing.  You  know,  and  the   internet  is  pretty  much  direct  marketing.  And  so  that's  the  beauty  of  it,  as  you  can   put  up  a  sales  page  and  test  one  headline  and  then  test  a  different  one.  Now  when   you're  testing,  it's  really  important  that  you  only  test  one  element.  So  that  you  know   what's   changing.   So   if   you   change   the   headline   and   you   change   something   else,   you're  not  gonna  know  what  made  the  difference.  So  if  you're  testing  one  thing  you   could   change   is   the   headline.   Try   two   different   headlines,   see   what   works   better.   Another  thing  you  could  test  is  your  offer.  Maybe  in  one  sales  page  you  say  “buy  one   get   one   free”   but   in   another   page   you   say   “get   50%   off”   and   you   see   which   one   pulls   better.  So  yes,  in  direct  marketing,  testing  is  always  a  big  thing,  you  can  do  the  same   with   your   email   messages,   and   send   out   one   email   message   with   one   subject   line,   and  another  one  with  a  different  subject  line  and  see  which  one  gets  opened  more.       Sushant:   And   in   your   experience,   do   you   think   that   headline   is   something   that   usually   makes   the   most   difference   or   does   it   depends   on   niche   and   market   and   who   you're  targeting?       Debra:   Well   you   know,   it   depends   on   all   of   the   above,   so   get   let's   say   you   know   that   you're   targeting   the   ideal   client,   you've   got   the   right   market,   and   you   have   a   message  that  you  believe  speaks  to  their  wants  and  their  needs,  then  the  headline  is   the  first  thing  that  catches  their  attention.  So  it  is  very  important  that  you  grab  their   attention  and  the  purpose  of  the  headline  is  to  get  them  to  read  the  next  line.  And   then  the  next  line  you  want  to  get  them  to  read  the  next  line.  So  it  progresses,  but   the  headline  is  in  most  cases  what's  gonna  grab  their  attention  to  begin  with,  so  it   has  to  be  strong.       Sushant:  I  guess  it's  the  same  thing  you  know  with  making  the  first  sales  cold  call,   where   you   know,   the   first   line   has   to   be   compelling,   curiosity   generating,   where   the   person   wants   to   spend   the   next   30   seconds   talking   to   you   on   the   phone   without   hanging  up.     Debra:  Right     Sushant:   So   you   have   so   much   experience   with   copywriting,   25   years,   or   more   than   25  years,  if  there's  nothing  else  that  a  person  gets  from  this  interview.  Once  a  person  

http://www.treptalks.com has   a   lot   of   experience,   they   got   a   bigger   view,   a   bigger   picture   and   a   bigger   perspective.   What   is   the   one   message,   or   maybe   a   one   mind-­‐set   that   a   person   has   to   be  that  you  would  like  to  say,  that  if  they  can  adapt  that  mind-­‐set,  that  perspective   would  benefit  them  the  most  in  writing  their  copy,  or  creating  a  sales  page,  or  with   copywriting  in  general?     Debra:  Well,  it's  interesting  that  you  bring  up  mind-­‐set  because  it's  really  important   that   you're   confident   about   what   you're   promoting.   So   for   example   in   one   of   the   presentations   I   give,   which   is   about   my   years   of   experience   and   the   lessons   I've   learned   in   it,   one   of   the   things   I   say   is   “be   confident”,   and   when   I   say   that,   I   think   back   to   when   I   first   started   my   business   and   people   said   to   me   “are   you   good   at   what  you  do?”    and  I  said  “yeah,  I'm  good  at  what  I  do”  and  I  wasn't  being,  you  know,   egotistical  or  arrogant,  I  was  just  being  honest,  because  why  else  would  I  offer  them   my  service  unless  I  was  good  at  what  I  was  doing?  So  I  would  say  for  people  that  if   you're   going   to   promote,   whether   it's   a   product,   or   a   service,   or   an   on-­‐line   program,   that   you're   really   confident   about   what   you're   delivering,   and   the   solutions   that   you're   offering   and   how   you   can   help   people.   And   that's   the   first   thing   in   your   mind   that  you  need  before  you  step  forward.       Sushant:  But  how  do  you  convey  that  confidence  on  paper?  I  mean  …       Debra:   Well,   you   do   it   by   expressing   who   you   are   as   a   person   and   how   you   help   people.   And   some   of   it,   when   it   is   on   paper,   for   example,   it's   important   to   talk   about   you,   you   being   your   prospect,   because   people   wanna   know   “what's   in   it   for   me”.   However   they   also   wanna   know   that   you   are   a   credible,   viable   business.   So   for   example,  when  I'm  talking  about  a  program  I  might  be  promoting  for  myself,  I  would   say   “who   is   Debra   Jason   and   who   am   I   to   qualify   to   teach   you   this”   and   I   will   give   people   that   information   and   say   that   I   have   25   years   of   experience,   I've   written   thousands  and  thousands  of  words  for  other  people,  I've  been  interviewed  in  books,   so   I'd   give   some   background   on   what   makes   me   credible,   I   use   testimonials.   Testimonials  are  a  very  big  plus.  Because  what  it  does,  it  helps  you  build  your  social   proof.   And   when   I   tell   people   about   testimonials   I   say   “it's   not   just   good   to   have   something   that   says   ”,   that   really   doesn't   tell   me   much   about   you.   As   opposed   to   having   someone   say   “I   spoke   to   Sushant   and   he   helped   me   troubleshoot   some   problems   I   was   having   in   my   business,   and   he   helped   me   get   together   a   marketing   plan,   and   now   I'm   taking   off”.   It's   a   lot   more   detail   to   it.   So   don't  be  afraid  to  ask  for  testimonials  as  well,  because  people  will  share  their  good   experiences  with  you.       Sushant:   So   confidence   in   paper,   or   on   paper,   really   means   having   the   credibility   or   having  that  social  proof  that  shows  that  you  are  an  expert  and  you  have  to  build  that   overtime  I  guess.  

http://www.treptalks.com   Debra:  Yes,  but  you  know,  everyone  at  some  point  in  time  is  a  beginner,  starts  out   with  their  business,  when  I  started  my  business,  almost  25  years  ago,  I  had  1  client.   Many   copywriters   will   sometime   leave   an   advertising   agency   and   have   some   clients   with   them   when   they   start   their   business.   So   when   I   started,   one   client   is   not   a   business   make.   So   I   had   to   prove   that   I   was   viable,   credible   and   knew   what   I   was   doing.  And  that  happens  overtime.  Some  of  the  ways  I  did  that  were  by  speaking  in   public.  Writing  articles  and  I  wrote  articles  for  local  business  publications  as  well  as   national   trade   publications.   There's   a   magazine   called   “Direct   Marketing   News”,   I   connected   with   an   editor   there   and   wrote   articles   for   them.   So   slowly,   overtime   I   built   that   credibility,   not   just   by   writing   for   other   people   but   having   other   people   contact  me,  that's  how  I  was  quoted  in  numerous  books,  people  would  find  me  on-­‐ line   and   wanna   do   interviews,   like   this   interview,   and   then   include   me   in   their   books,   so   it   takes   time,   but   again,   if   you   have   that   confidence,   you'll   keep   pushing   forward.  As  entrepreneurs,  you  know  there's  plenty  of  times  we  get  that  “no”  on  the   telephone   and   I   don't   know   about   you,   but   when   I   first   started,   I'd   hang   up   the   phone  and  lots  of  times  I'd  cry  and  go  “what  am  I  doing?”.  They  said  “no”.  You  have   to   put   down   the   phone,   take   a   deep   breath   and   go   “okay,   on   to   the   next”   and   sooner   or  later  you'll  get  that  “yes”  and  then  another  “yes”  and  another  “yes”.  So  the  life  of   an   entrepreneur   can   be   struggling   at   times,   but   the   value   and   what   we   get,   in   terms   of   the   life   style   we   have   and   the   joy   that   we   get   from   having   our   own   business,   makes  it  worthwhile  and  if  you're  not  willing  to  do  that  hard  work,  then  you  might   wanna  consider  a  J-­‐O-­‐B.       Sushant:   I   think   that   every   entrepreneur   will   probably   resonate   with   what   you   just   described,   and   I   think   failure   and   rejection   is   such   a   big   part   of   being   an   entrepreneur   I   think   even   that   you   learn   over   time,   because   you   start   getting   rejections  and  it's...  a  huge  part  of  being  an  entrepreneur.  So  let's  change  the  gears  a   little  bit,  and  get  into  your  five  steps  methods  a  little  bit.  So  I  thought  the  best  way  to   ask   you   the   questions   for   that   would   be   just   to   take   like   a   real   world   example.   So   let's  say  that  I  am  a  chiropractor  and  I,  over  years  of  experience,  I  have  developed   methods,  and  I  know  of  certain  exercise  that  can  really  help  older  people  with  back   pains.  And  I  know  from  the  bottom  of  my  heart  that  the  exercises  that  I’m  going  to   recommend  to  them  are  really  going  to  help  them.  So  I  want  my  message  to  be  out   there  as  much  as  possible,  because  I  know  that  I'm  helping  other  people,  so  I  want   done  an  e  book  or  created  a  product  but  in  order  for  people  to  get  interested  in  my   product,  I  want  to  have  to  have  a  good  copy.  So  I'm  sitting  down  now,  having  that   information,  what  is  the  first  thing  I  need  to  know  before  I  start  writing  that  copy?       Debra:   Okay,   there're   two   things   you   need   to   know,   before   we   start   the   five   step   formula,   and   we've   sort   of   touched   on   that,   but   one   is   to   know   who   your   ideal   client   is,  and  the  other  thing  is  to  really  understand  what  your  product  or  your  service  is.  

http://www.treptalks.com Once  you  have  that  down,  then  you  can  move  into  the  five  steps.  And  the  first  step   would  be  “determine  the  problem”.  So  what  is  the  problem  that  these  older  people   are   having   and   you   said   it's   back   pain,   well   is   it   chronic,   is   it   back   pain   they   have   every  day,  that's  keeping  them  from  doing  something  as  simple  as  getting  in  and  out   of  a  car,  is  it  back  pain  that  stops  them  from  going  to  their  daily  walk,  what  are  some   of  the  touch  points  that  you  can  touch  on  that  really  resonate  with  them.  Are  they   having  a  hard  time  waking  up  in  the  morning  and  just  getting  out  of  bed?  So  really   determine  the  problem  that  they're  facing  in  particular.       Sushant:   And   the   problem   has   to   be   “how   is   the   back   pain   affecting   the   rest   of   their   life”     Debra:  Right.  There  are  two  triggers  that  grab  people's  attention.  One  is  curiosity,   so  you  might  say  “here's  a  way  to  end  your  back  pain  in  ten  days”  then  you  go  “wow,   I'm   curious   about   that”   the   other   trigger   is   to   touch   on   people's   emotions.   So   the   emotional  part  of  that  for  back  pain  is  “are  you  not  able  to  do  the  things  you  love?”   because   you're   in   pain   every   day.   And   that   would   get   people   to   go   “yeah”   and   it   could   be   even   more   specific,     “are   you   missing   time   with   your   grandchildren”   because   you   can't   sit   on   the   floor   and   play   with   them   because   your   back   hurts,   or   you  can't  pick  them  up  and  hold  them  because  your  back  hurts.  So  really  see  what   you  can  do  that  touches  emotions,  emotions  is  a  big  part  of  writing  a  copy.       Sushant:  So  touch  on  emotions  but  with  the  problem  be,  or  try  to  be  as  specific  as   possible.   So   not   just   say   in   general   words   “is   your   back   pain   preventing   you   from   doing  the  things  that  you  want  to  do”,  but  saying  “is  your  back  pain  preventing  you   from  enjoying  your  time  with  your  grandchildren”  or  going  to  the  shopping  mall  and   doing   your   own   shopping   or   making   your   own   bed   in   the   morning,   so   be   very   specific.     Debra:  Things  that  can  be  more  specific,  and  that's  where  step  number  two  comes   in,   step   number   two   is   to   push   their   buttons.   And   to   do   that   you   really   have   to   understand   their   feelings   and   show   that   you   can   relate   to   their   pain,   or   to   their   stress   about   this,   or   maybe   some   people   are   angry   about   their   back   pain.   Maybe   they're  fed  up  with  it  because  they've  been  living  with  it  for  such  a  long  time.  So  you   really   want   to   push   their   buttons   so,   as   we   said   earlier,   that   while   they're   reading   your   content,   they're   going   “yes   that's   me,   oh   my   God,   this   person   really   understands  my  issues,  they  know  where  I'm  coming  from  and  they  can  relate”  and   as   you   said   earlier,   the   word   resonate,   they   resonate   with   what   they're   reading,   and   as   they're   reading,   they   think   “oh   my   God,   I   do   need   this   person's   program”   or   “I   should   order   their   e   book   because   they   really   understand   me   and   my   problems   and   what  I'm  dealing  with”.        

http://www.treptalks.com Sushant:  So  the  first  part  of  the  copywriting  process  is  really  getting  in  touch  with   specifically  with  what  pains  your  customer  is  going  through.  Because  when  there  is   a  pain  there  is  an  emotional  connection  and  you  can  make  that  connection  in  your   first  part  and  really  go  through  what  is  the  experience  that  they  are  having.  And  that   is  preventing  them  from  against  the  positive  experience  of  their  life.  And  the  more   specific  you  can  be,  the  more  you  can  resonate  with  their  pain  I  guess,  the  more  they   will  think  “this  person  understands”     Debra:   They   will   connect   with   you.   It's   something   that   might   help   people   that   are   watching  is  three  step,  I  call  it  a  template  but  it's  kind  of  a  formula  to  help  you  create   your,  the  beginning  of  your  message,  and  it  goes  like  this:  “I  help  blank  to  get  or  gain   blank   even   if   blank”   so,   I   help,   the   first   blank   is   your   audience,   so   in   this   case   you   were  saying,  I  help  senior  citizens  or  maybe  you  say  people  over  55  or  60,  to  get  or   gain,  relief  from  their  chronic  back  pain,  even  if  they  have  been  suffering  with  it  for   years,   or   have   been   taking   medication.   So   you   see   these   three   steps.   Mine   for   example   would   be   “I   help   passion   driven   solar   printers   communicate   their   marketing   message   so   that   it   captivates   and   converts   their   prospects   into   loyal   customers  even  if  they  have  been  struggling  with  how  to  put  their  ideas  into  words   in   the   past   ”.     So   that   formula   at   least   helps   you   generate   sort   of   your   thirty   seconds   spiel  I  call  it,  some  people  call  it  the  elevator  pitch,  but  at  least  you  have  a  starting   point.  And  there's  a  4th  step  that  you  can  do  to  that  which  would  be  to  add  “so  that”.   So  you  could  say  “I  help  older  people,  get  relief  from  their  back  pain  even  if  they've   been   dealing   with   it   for   years   so   that   they   can   play   with   their   grandchildren   everyday”.  So  that  they  can  go  to  the  store  on  their  own,  so  that  they  can  get  in  and   out  of  their  car  with  ease,  and  this  “so  that”  can  go  on  and  on  and  on  but  it  helps  you   dig  up  some  of  that  juicy  touch  points  that  you  can  use  with  your  audience.       Sushant:  Now  this  30  seconds  spiel,  it  sounds  to  me  more  like  a  solution,  does  this   go  after  you  have  connected  with  their  pain  point  or  is  that  like  you  use  at  the  very   beginning?       Debra:  You  should  have  that  sort  of  in  your  mind  before  you  start,  because  it  sort  of   takes   on   everything   we've   been   talking   about,   I   help   blank,   where   black   is   who's   your  ideal  client,  so  you  need  to  know  that  before  you  get  started.  And  then  to  get  or   gain   blank,   and   that   blank   is   a   benefit,   so   you   need   to   know   your   product   or   your   service  and  what  the  benefits  are  of  it.  Even  if  blank,  that's  an  objection  or  a  barrier,   so  what  are  some  of  the  objections  people  might  have  to  what  you're  offering.  And   then   so   that   would   be   more   benefits.   So   it's   a   very   good   idea   to   have   that   in   mind   before  you  start  a  meeting.  So  your  message  is  clear.       Sushant:   So   I   guess   it   would   be   a   good   exercise   to   have   those   4   points   in   a   word   document   or   something   and   before   even   writing   and   copywriting   you   be   very  

http://www.treptalks.com specific   and   fill   out   exactly   what   you're   helping   them   with,   what   are   their   exact   problems  and  how  they  would  benefit  and  what  specific  ways  once  you  have  helped   them.       Debra:  When  I  start  working  with  a  client  for  the  first  time  if  I'm  writing  the  content   I  have  a  questionnaire  that  I  send  them.  And  that  questionnaire  asks  all  those  things   you  just  touched  on.  Who  is  your  audience,  what  do  you  know  about  them,  what  are   their   problems,   what   are   the   issues,   what   do   you   offer   that   solves   that   for   them?   How   do   you   help   them?   And   get   into   a   lot   of   detail.   And   if   you   have   competition,   think  about  how  you  do  it  better  than  your  competition.  Because  obviously  there's  a   lot   of   people   that   do   what   you   do,   but   what   makes   you   different,   so   why   should   I   hire   you,   instead   of   the   competitor   next   door?   Is   there   something   that   makes   you   especially  different?  And  for  most  of  us  what  makes  us  different  is  that  we  all  have   our  own  personalities  and  we  don't  want  to  be  copy  cats.  So  there  has  to  be  a  unique   flavor  so  to  speak  of  what  you  have  to  offer.       Sushant:  So  we  have  done  that,  we  have  done  the  pre  copywriting  exercise,  now  I   actually   have   the   word   document   when   I'm   beginning   to   write   the   copy.   Should   I   write  the  headline  first  or  is  that  something  that  you  do  at  the  end?       Debra:  It  varies,  there  are  some  writers  who  say  “yes  write  the  headline  first”  and   then   others   who   write   the   copy   first,   and   from   me   it   varies   from   time   to   time,   depending   on   what   I'm   working   on,   sometimes   if   I'm   not   real   clear   yet,   I'll   write   the   content,  and  sometimes  in  that  content  I'll  find  out  what  the  headline  is.  And  pull  it   out.  Other  times  I'll  start  with  the  headline  and  then  I'll  write  the  content,  and  then   I'll  let  it  sit  for  a  while  and  I'll  go  back  to  it,  and  sometimes  when  I  go  back  to  it,  I   might   go   “you   know   what,   that   headline's   not   strong   enough,   I   need   to   change   it”   and   so   my   first   draft   is   never   really   the   final   draft,   it's   just   the   beginning,   starting   point   and   better   to   just   start   writing.   I   wrote   a   blog   post   “how   to   awaken   the   copywriter   within   you”   and   it's   really   just   about   being   who   you   are   like   we   said   when   we   first   started   talking,   having   a   conversation   with   someone,   so   just   start   writing,  and  don't  feel  like  “oh  that's  not  right”,  cross  it  out,  just  write.  Because  it's   just  your  first  draft.  And  then  if  you're  going  to  hire  a  writer,  then  you  send  it  off  to   her   and   say   “okay,   let   her   pick   it   apart   and   work   it   out”   but   don't   worry   about   it   when  you  first  get  started,  just  write.       Sushant:   Now   the   meat   of   the   copy,   does   it   have   to   follow   a   certain   format   that   first   you  have  to  connect  with  the  pain  point  of  the  customer,  then  you  have  to  provide   your  solution,  then  you  have  to  do  a  call  to  action.  Is  that  the  general  format  or  does   it  also  depend,  you  can  do  more  of  a  free  style  there  also?      

http://www.treptalks.com Debra:  Well  even  when  you  start  to  write  you  can  just  free-­‐style  and  then  go  back   and   reformat   it   so   that   it   follows   the   steps   of  one   determine   the   problem,   number   two,  push  those  prospects  buttons,  number  three,  create  the  “aha”  moments  where   they're   going   “yes,   that's   me,   that's   me”,   number   four,   offer   them   the   solution   to   the   problem     Sushant:   So   the   first   three   steps   are   really   if   you   combine   them,   it's   really   about   connecting   with   the   problem.   Would   you   put   them   like   in   one   big   box?   You're   connecting   with   the   problem,   you're   identifying   the   problem,   you're   creating   emotional   connection,   with   some   of   the   pains   that   they're   having,   and   then   really   being   specific   where   the   person   is   saying   “yes   that   is   exactly   the   problem   that   I'm   having”.  Would  you  put  those  three  things  in  one  box?       Debra:  Well  they're  three  different  steps,  so  you're  not  going  to  have  them  all  in  one   paragraph,  it's  gonna  flow,  as  your  writing.  And  then  step  number  four  would  be  to   offer   the   solution   to   the   problem.   People   act   for   two   reasons:   two   either   want   to   gain   something   they   don't   have,   or   two,   they   want   to   avoid   losing   something   that   they  do  have.  So  at  that  point  you're  trying  to  touch  on  those  points,  so  that  they  say   “okay,  now  I'm  going  to”  as  you  were  turn  out,  avoid  back  pain,  or  eliminate  my  back   pain,   and   then   the   5th   step   in   the   process   would   be   the   call   to   action.   So   there's   a   steady  flow,  that  takes  them  down  a  path,  where  they  go  “okay,  here's  the  problem,   this   person   resonates   with   my   problem,   aha,   I   really   like   them   because   they   understand  what  I'm  going  through,  oh  great  here's  the  solution  they're  offering  me,   and  here's  where  I  take  the  action.  I  push  this  button  or  I  send  them  the  email.”  So   that's  the  flow.  And  in  between,  one  thing  that's  really  important  to  me  in  particular,   especially  if  you're  on  a  web  page  or  it's  a  sales  letter  that  comes  in  your  mail  box,  is   to   make   the   content   inviting   to   the   reader's   eyes,   so   when   you   go   there   you   see   a   headline.   Then   you   see   short   paragraphs   of   copy,   not   long   diatribes   of   content,   because  nobody  is  gonna  sit  through  that.  You  see  short  paragraphs,  you  see  bullet   points,   you   see   sub   headings,   and   the   sub   headings   pull   out   questions   or   benefits   or   issues   that   touch   people's   emotions,   and   it's   easy   to   read.   So   that   when   they   get   there   they   don't   go   “this   is   too   much   copy,   I   can't   read   it”   it   flows   softly   and   it's   inviting  to  their  eyes.  So  that's  not  really  about  how  to  write  but  it's  how  to  make  it   inviting  for  them  to  read.       Sushant:  And  are  there  any  softwares  or  templates  out  there  that  help  you  do  that   easily?  That  you  may  be  aware  of,  or  not?       Debra:   Well   probably   no,   there's   a   lot   of   writers   out   there,   I   have   a   template,   for   example   that   helps   people   with   headlines,   I   think   now   it   has   the   twelve   headline   templates.   So   they   can   look   at   the   headline   and   fill   in   the   blanks.   I   have   another   template  that's  for  this  thirty  second  spiel  that  helps  them  fill  in  the  blanks  of  what  

http://www.treptalks.com they're  doing.  And  yes,  there  are  writers  out  there  that  offer  templates  for  all  kind  of   things.   I'm   putting   one   together   now   that   will   probably   be   more   for   like   a   sales   letter,  or  a  sales  page.  You  know,  that  says  “here's  how  you  should  format  this  and   this   is   where   you   plug   this   in   and   this   is   where   you   plug   this   in”   and   then   you   put   in   your  own  problems,  or  your  own  issues,  or  your  solution  and  how  you  solve  them.       Sushant:   Now   the   step   four   where   we   go   into   the   solution   of   the   problem   is   that,   you  mentioned  two  things  that  people  are  motivated  by  two  things,  they  want  to  get   something  or  they  are  trying  to  get  away  from  the  pains.  In  your  experience  is  one   or  two  more  effective,  should  a  person  focus  on  saying  “if  you  use  my  solution  the   problem  that  you're  having  getting  up  in  the  morning  we'll  be  able  to  solve  it”       Debra:  You  know,  there's  two  schools  of  thought,  one  says  push  the  negative  pain   points   as   much   as   you   can,   and   then   offer   them   the   solution,   and   then   there's   one   that  says  push  the  positive.  So  it  really  depends  on  what  those  pain  points  are.  So  for   example,  people  do  things  as  I  said  for  one  of  two  reasons  but  there  are  3  things  that   influence  those  reasons.  One  is  money,  one  is  health  and  one  is  relationships.  So  in   many  cases  you  might  start  with  something  that  seems  you  want  to  avoid  losing  a   relationship,   you   want   to   avoid   possibly   ending   your   marriage,   or   being   divorced,   and   then   it   can   go   into   the   positive   points,   here's   a   program   that   can   help   you   work   through  that.  Or  maybe  here's  a  program  that  will  help  you  so  you  might  be  able  to   work  through  it  and  not  get  divorced.  Here  are  some  solutions,  so  let's  start  to  take   on   the   positive   light   of   the   issue,   so   there's   probably   a   little   bit   of   both.   So   that's   the   reason   why   I   call   my   formula   “pushing   a   prospects   buttons”,   a   lot   of   people   call   it   “tapping   into   people's   pain”   and   I   find   “pushing   a   prospects   buttons”   is   a   little   gentler,   because   we   don't   want   to   cause   people   pain,   we   don't   want   to   stick   that   screw   in   and   tighten   it   even   more,   because   they   are   hurting,   in   most   cases,   depending  what  the  issue  is,  and  even  if  it's  about  relationships  or  health,  or  money,   there's   something   that   you're   going   “okay,   I   need   this   solution,   so   I'm   going   to   purchase  this  program  or  go  out  and  buy  myself  a  vibrating  chair  to  help  me  with   massage   my   back,   or   I'm   going   to   go   for   massages”   so   there’re   different   solutions   to   every  problem  and  you  can  be  a  little  bit  positive  and  a  little  bit  not  that  I  want  to   call  it  negative,  but  a  little  bit  more  assertive  about  touching  on  the  issues  that  cause   some  people  emotional  distress.       Sushant:   I   think   that's   a   very   good   point,   no   matter   what   perspective   you   take,   if   you're   coming   from   a   point   of   view   of   genuinely   trying   to   help   people,   and   I   think   it   may   probably   be   true   where   people   will   more   likely   to   take   action   from   the   perspective  of  getting  away  from  pain  then  to  a  possible  positive  thing  or  something.   I  think  if  you're  really  coming  from  the  intention  of  helping  people,  and  if  you  have   to  use  those  pain  points  I  think  there's  nothing  wrong  with  that.      

http://www.treptalks.com Debra:  Well  I'm  thinking  of  the  chiropractor  example  that  you  gave,  suppose  there's   a  proud  father  who's  suffering  from  back  pain  he  can  hardly  walk  and  his  daughter's   about  to  get  married  and  he  wants  to  walk  her  down  the  aisle.  So  the  pain  part  is  “oh   my   God   he's   suffering   with   this,   it's   been   a   problem   for   ever”   but   the   beautiful   positive   part   is   “here's   a   solution   that   will   help   you   walk   your   daughter   down   the   aisle”.  We're  going  to  give  you  a  series  of  five  exercises  to  strengthen  your  back,  so   there's   the   positive   side,   yes   you're   suffering   from   pain   but   here's   the   beautiful   outcome  that  you'll  get  when  you  do  this  program.       Sushant:  Now  the  fifth  part  is  the  call  to  action.  Is  there  any  lesson  that  we  need  to   know  about  how  to  use  the  call  to  action  or  the  most  effective  way  of  using  it?       Debra:  Well  the  most  effective  way  of  using  it,  is  to  make  sure  you  use  it.  And  the   reason  I  say  that  is  that  there's  a  lot  of  people  that  come  in  and  say  “my  website  is   not  doing  that  well,  I'm  not  getting  people  to  respond”,  and  I  go  to  the  website  and   there's   no   call   to   action.   There's   nothing   there   that   says   “call   me   today   at   this   number”  or  “email  me  today  at  this  address”  or  “push  the  buy  now  button  and  place   your  order  today”.  So  the  most  important  thing  about  a  call  to  action  is  to  make  sure   you  include  one.  Some  people  have  a  “contact  us”  page,  and  they  just  assume  “well  if   someone  wants  to  contact  me  they'll  push  that  contact  us  button”  and  they  never  on   their  website  say  “contact  me”,  “call  me,  do  something”.  So  it  seems  really  obvious,   so  I  think  that's  why  people  forget  it,  because  they  think  “oh  they'll  know,  if  there's  a   phone  number  there  to  call  me,  they'll  know  if  there's  an  email  there  to  email  me”   but   it's   never   a   bad   idea   to   tell   people   what   to   do.   It's   very   simple,   it   doesn't   take   much  of  your  copy  space  up  to  just  say  “hey,  you  want  a  solution,  call  me  today  and   let's  get  started”.  So  that's  the  biggest  point  is  just  included  in  the  call  to  action.     Sushant:   Okay,   now   in   terms   of   the   format,   is   there   an   ideal   length   for   a   copy,   or   does   it   really   depend   on   what   you're   trying   to   sell,   what   your   niche   is,   what   your   market  is,  you  know,  is  there  an  ideal  length?       Debra:  My  theory  on  that  is  you  write  for  as  long  as  it  takes  for  you  to  communicate   your  message.  These  days  most  people  will  say  “I'm  so  busy,  I'm  so  busy”  but  if  your   message  is  targeted  correctly  and  is  really  addressing  something  that  is  of  interest   to   your   reader,   they   will   read   it,   they'll   scan   it   to   begin   with,   they'll   start   with   scanning   headlines   and   bullet   points,   but   if   you're   touching   the   right   emotional   points   then   they'll   go   “hmmm   maybe   I   should   keep   reading   this”.   Usually   for   example,   if   it's   an   update   page,   let's   say   for   somebody   to   sign   in   for   a   complementary   seminar,   I   will   keep   that   shorter,   because   usually   what   that   leads   to   is   a   video,   or   a   webinar,   or   a   Tele-­‐Seminar   where   they'll   get   more   details.   So   the   update  page  might  just  touch  on  bullet  points  on  what  they'll  get  when  they  listen  to   the   program.   But   if   it's   a   sales   page,   you   need   to   give   them   enough   information   to  

http://www.treptalks.com make   a   buying   decision.   So   that   can   take   four   pages,   and   in   many   cases   there   are   sales  pages  that  are  even  much  longer.  I  prefer  not  to  have  a  sales  page  that  if  you   were   to   print   it   out   on   your   printer   would   be   fifteen   pages   long,   and   there   are   many   that   go   that   route,   and   sometimes   if   you   go   look   at   who   those   people   are,   they're   very  successful.  So  you  have  to  think  that  long  page  is  working  for  them.  Otherwise   they  would  change  it.  So  the  best  way  to  go  about  it  is  test  it.       Sushant:   I   think   if   a   person   is   hurting,   and   if   what   you're   describing   on   your   web   page  or  your  website  is  really  connecting  with  them  I  think  it  doesn't  really  matter  if   it's  fifteen  pages  or  not,  they  will  keep  on  reading.     Debra:  They  will  read  it.  Yeah,  they're  at  a  point  where  they're  looking  for  a  solution   they'll   keep   reading   because   they're   going   “oh   my   God,   this   person   really   understand   me,   I   wanna   know   more”   and   so   the   length   of   the   content   these   days   varies,   but   I   tend   to   go   a   little   bit   longer   especially   if   it's   a   sales   page.   If   you're   looking   at   a   web   page,   for   example,   that   talk   about   us,   or   your   home   page,   you   don't   want  that  to  run  15  pages  long.  A  sales  page  is  slightly  different  because  it  really  is   promoting  a  product  or  a  service.       Sushant:   So   you've   been   developing   your   copywriting   skills   for   such   a   long   time,   have   there   been   any   books   or   resources,   or   people   whom   you   have   studied   that   have   really   made   a   difference   in   how   you   copy-­‐write   and   would   you   like   to   recommend  any  books  or  something  like  that?       Debra:   The   person   that   had   the   biggest   influence   on   my   life   is,   was   a   direct   marketing  veteran,  his  name  is  Eugene  Schwartz,  and  he  wrote  a  book  many  years   ago,  it's  not  always  easy  to  get  a  hold  of,  but  it's  called  “Breakthrough  advertising”   and   most   of   the   copywriters   I   know   who   were   either   well   known   or   not   so   well   known,  know  about  Gene's  book  because  it's  sort  of  one  of  those  “must  read”  books.   So   it's   called   “Breakthrough   advertising”   and   it's   Eugene   Schwartz.   It   was   published   by   Boardroom   Books,   occasionally   I   think   you   can   find   it   on   Amazon,   but   many   of   the   time   they'll   be   used   editions   and   many   go   for   a   lot   of   money   because   his   book   is   that  valuable.     Sushant:  So  it's  not  in  print  anymore?       Debra:  I  don't  think  that  Boardroom  Books  has  re-­‐printed  it  recently,  but  like  I  said,   I've  gone  on  Amazon  and  I've  seen  it  anywhere  from  $50  to  $150  so  if  you  search  it   you   can   probably   find   it   someplace.   Another   book   my   mentor   Gene   Schwartz   suggested  I  read  many  years  ago  it's  another  old  book  and  I  think  you  can  still  get  it,   it's   called   “the   art   of   plain   talk”   and   it's   by   a   gentleman   by   the   name   of   Rudolph   Flesch.   And   that's   F-­‐L-­‐E-­‐S-­‐C-­‐H.   And   it's   really   about   the   basics   of   writing   simply   and  

http://www.treptalks.com writing   short   sentences.   So   that's   another   great   one.   There   are   other   some   must   reads   called   “scientific   advertising”   by   Claude   Hopkins   is   a   great   book   and   many   consider   that   a   must-­‐read,   there   are   books   by   David   Ogilvy,   who   is   very   well   known   in   the   advertising   marketing   industry,   I   just   recently   read   a   book   called   “Hypnotic   Writing”  by  Joe  Vitale,    V-­‐I-­‐T-­‐A-­‐L-­‐E,  it's  very  well  done,  and  those  are  a  list  of  some,  if   you  want  I  can  put  together  a  list  for  you,  for  your  readers,  cause  there's  so  many   many   books.   So   you   can   get   yourself   overwhelmed   with   them.   But   those   are   some   good  ones  to  start  with.       Sushant:  So  to  me  it  seems  like  that  being  a  copywriter  is  really  about  having  a  lot  of   empathy,   and   being   able   to   empathize   with   the   people   and   their   pains   and   things   like  that.  Would  you  agree  with  that?       Debra:  Yes,  I  think  you  need  to  have  a  human  touch;  my  tag  line  is  marketing  and   writing   with   heart   not   hype.   And   I   think   more   and   more   these   days'   people   are   starting  to  take  that  path  of  being  more  compassionate  in  their  writing.  And  not  so   hyper  in  their  writing  or  in  their  marketing  in  general.  Because  that's  what  people   are  looking  for,  it's  somebody  who  really  is  compassionate  about  what  they're  going   through.  There's  something  called  the  KLT  factor,  which  is  Know,  Like  and  Trust  and   so   people   want   to   do   business   with   those   people   they   Know,   Like   and   Trust,   and   when   you're   writing   content,   if   you're   reaching   somebody   that   you've   never   met   before,   you   want   to   try   to   convey   that   in   there   so   that   they   at   least   take   that   first   step   to   get   to   know   you,   and   like   you,   because   they're   not   going   to   trust   and   buy   from  you  until  they  do.  Until  they  feel  they  have  a  little  good  relationship  with  you.       Sushant:   So   really   great   messages   today,   if   someone   wants   to   get   in   touch   with   you   for  your  copywriting  services  or  some  of  the  products  that  you  have,  your  e-­‐books   and  things  like  that,  what  is  the  best  way  of  getting  in  touch  with  you?       Debra:  My  website  is  writedirection.com.  If  someone  for  example  has  content  that   they've  written  and  they'd  like  to  talk  to  me  about  “am  I  doing  the  right  thing  or  not”   I  offer  a  thirty  minute  complementary  consultation  and  that  you  can  sign  up  for  at   writedirection.com/talkwithdebra  and  I  only  have  a  few  slots  for  that,  if   four  people   respond  and  fill  out  the  form,  that's  on  the  website,  then  we  can  take  it  to  the  next   step  and  see  if  you  qualify  and  you'll  have  that   thirty  minutes  conversation.  Also  on   Facebook,   so   I'm   on   Facebook.com/writedirection   and   I'm   also   on   amazon.com   if   you   search   amazon   for   Debra   Jason   you'll   find   out   there's   two   e-­‐books   that   I   have   there   and   one   is   a   summary   of   what   we   did   today,   was   from   another   interview,   that   somebody   sis   and   they   put   it   up   as   an   e-­‐book.   So   those   are   few   ways   to   find   me   and   my  email  is  [email protected]      

http://www.treptalks.com Sushant:  Alright,  perfect,  I'm  going  to  mention  all  those  resources  in  the  Sushant's   works   where   people   can   find   you   and   I   can't   thank   you   enough   for   all   the   information   that   you   provided.   I   definitely   learned   enough   and   I'm   sure   anyone   watching   this   interview   will   definitely   get   a   good   inside   about  copywriting   and   how   to   actually   start   their   copywriting   process.   So   really   appreciate   your   time   today   Debra  and  thank  you  very  much  for  your  interview  on  this  show.       Debra:   Well   thank   you   for   having   me   and   thank   you   to   everybody   for   watching   and   listening  in  and  I  say  “Here's  to  your  sweet  success”     Sushant:  Yours  too,  thank  you