Jazz Guitar/Classical Guitar: A Symbiotic Relationship - Mike Gari

Jazz Guitar/Classical Guitar: A Symbiotic Relationship Part I

By Dr. Steven Kinigstein

Bucky Pizzarelli, jazz guitarist extraordinaire, informed me that he had recently gotten a Ramirez classical guitar. More than thirty years earlier, Mike Gari was proudly showing me his newly acquired Contreras. These two great jazz guitarists are not the only ones I’ve known who have sustained a serious and devoted involvement with the classical guitar. Look at the voice leading in any chord-melody by Howard Morgen, where the depth of his study of the classical guitar most obviously displays its influence. The manner in which the voices move is completely logical; yet they sacrifice neither warmth nor beauty. I could go on citing examples of major jazz guitarists who play the classical guitar or classical guitar repertoire, but that falls short of the point of this article. Moreover, there are many classical guitarists who have made an enduring commitment to jazz. (The comments of two of them, David Burgess and David Richter will be seen in Part II of this article.) Clearly, elements exist in each of these genres that have managed to attract players of one to the other. (Certainly, the benefits to be had from the understanding of voice leading on the classical instrument, though great, cannot be the sole reason for involvement on the part of jazz guitarists.) In order to get an idea, at least in part, of what is at the root of this reciprocal attraction (and if there might be, indeed, a symbiosis), I assembled a group of virtuoso guitarists from each of these two genres. The guitarists participating in this article, which will be presented in two parts, are (listed alphabetically): Roni Ben-Hur, Gene Bertoncini, David Burgess, Mike Gari, Howard Morgen, Bucky Pizzarelli, David Richter, Bill Wurtzel, and Jimmy Wyble. In the first segment of Part I, which took place on August 6, 2008, we will hear from Gene, Mike, and Bill. SK: Am I correct in assuming that all three of you consider yourselves to be primarily jazz guitarists? All: Yes.

SK: When you are playing classical repertoire, do you use a classical guitar or an archtop? BW: I can use an archtop; but when it’s going to be a lot of classical pieces, I use a nylon-strung Bellido or an amplified Takamine. Just Jazz Guitar

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Bill Wurtzel Steve Kinigstein, Gene Bertoncini and Mike Gari

SK: If you’re playing your archtop, and a classical tune is called, do you use a pick? BW: Just fingerstyle.

SK: Gene, what’s your primary guitar? GB: I play a lot of solo guitar, so I use a classical guitar made by John Buscarino. (It’s amplified, as well.) SK: Does it have a built-in pickup? GB: Yes.

SK: Do you ever use a guitar that does not have a built-in pickup? GB: Yes, a Velasquez.

SK: That brings up another question: Do you find that the question of amplification influences your technique? Do you play a piece differently on the Velasquez from the way you would play it on the Buscarino? GB: Sometimes there’s a different feel. There’s a different kind of fulfillment when you are making all the sound yourself. I feel a little better when all the sound is created just by the guitar. It’s impossible to work that way in most situations – when you’re playing with other musicians, or in a large concert hall. Even with that, sometimes it’s a joy to play with just a microphone and a guitar. I’ve gotten so used to playing on the Buscarino; I feel more at home on it. All my latest recordings have been done with just a microphone and the Buscarino. SK: What about you, Mike? MG: (Laughing) I’ve sort of gotten into a bastardized version of classical and jazz. So at this stage, I use a pick, and fingers, and I use that technique on any guitar. I’m not going to get the nuances that I would with a classical guitar; but somehow I’m able to make myself

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happy, and sometimes I’m able to convey that feelingf when I’m playing for people.

Mike Gari and Bucky Pizzarelli

SK: Knowing your playing as well as I do, I am certain that your combination of fingers and pick is a matter of choice, rather than anything imposed by limitations. MG: Actually, I surrendered, I just surrendered! At one time I could really play it well that way (with fingers); but I just could not get it to the next level. It wasn’t going to happen. I just had to acknowledge it. I said to myself, “I like this stuff. I like hearing it, and I want to be able to play it for other people too.” This was my compromise.

SK: Gene, what attracted you to classical guitar? Did you start out playing jazz on a classical guitar? GB: No. I always had an archtop, a D’Aquisto. When I was studying with Chuck Wayne- in my college days, he told me to listen to this recording of Julian Bream. It was called “The Art of Julian Bream.” I’ll never forget that record; it just changed my life completely.

SK: What was the initial action that you took? GB: Well, a bunch of the guys were studying with Albert Valdes-Blaine. Barry Galbraith, Howie Collins – those guys. So I immediately started studying with Albert Valdes-Blaine. He was the one who introduced me to a Velasquez guitar. He used to have a student model there. It had wonderful tone. I just dove into the repertoire and studied. I really started to think about playing some of the repertoire. But I was always a jazz player, and always earning money as a jazz player. Pretty soon, when I was accompanying singers or doing a record date, if it was requested, I would sneak in a classical guitar. Like if I was accompanying Lena Horne, I used to do some solo stuff. Then I started doing it with just that (classical) guitar. I always had the classical guitar with me to practice. I got to be known as being able to play it, so I started getting record dates. There were films where they needed a classical guitar, and Hubert Laws albums used classical guitar. There were very few guys doing it. Jay Berliner was one. He’s a giant! Jay Berliner could sit down and sight-read anything.

SK: I actually did a session once with Jay Berliner. He was amazing. GB: I feel so lucky. First of all, I fell in love with Julian Bream’s playing. Then, all this stuff happened. And at just about the same time, the bossa nova came to our country, and I became friendly with Joao Gilberto. Joao SK: In what ways do you feel that it improved your used to borrow my Velasquez whenever he had a concert. I still have the marks where he used to scotch tape general musicianship? BW: Sound, how to make the guitar sing, how to press the set list. (laughing) That was on my old Velasquez. the strings, reading, familiarity with the fingerboard, the Then I got a new one. Everything that I’ve accomplished individualistically has been because I started ability to relax and live in the moment… playing classical. SK: Did the benefits of those things that you learned (for example, how to make the guitar sing more) SK: Mike, what attracted you to the classical guitar? MG: Well, my first teacher was Howard Morgan, who carry over to your archtop as well? was big on finger style. He was always using his fingers. BW: Definitely. That got me into it. Then, of course, I was listening to SK: What about when you’re playing your archtop people like Gene, and Chuck Wayne, and they were playing great classical. Also, the whole concept of using with a pick? BW: Yes. Sound above all. A little vibrato goes a long way. your fingers opens up so many things. Even playing SK: Bill, what attracted you to the classical guitar? BW: A friend of mine said that if I wanted to improve my musicianship, it would be a good idea to take a couple of classical lessons. I was lucky to find a great teacher, Yasha Kofman, and was hooked.

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jazz. Not only as far as chords; but also single notes, climbing up with the fingers instead of with the pick. You hear Jack Wilkins doing that a lot. I just love classical music. I wish I could play it as well as Gene;it takes a lot of dedication. It’s made a tremendous difference in my playing. Having a foot in both jazz and classical music makes you feel so confident. You feel like you can draw from both of them. GB: If I could make a point: I think having studied classical repertoire led me to the whole idea of preparing arrangements. It wasn’t as if I was just using stuff I knew to play a gig. The whole thing is about sitting down and working out something. SK: Voice leading, etc.? GB: Yeah, everything. And writing it. Almost like a classical piece. It represented a departure from the stuff I already knew. The classical technique will afford you these possibilities in playing.

SK: I’ll address this question to everybody: We’re already finding that both these genres have a great deal in common. Is there element in jazz or classical guitar that you would view as exclusive to one of the genres? Is there even anything about either of them that is, in fact, contradictory. BW: The time feel is different. In classical music, syncopation is open to interpretation; but in jazz it leads the way. GB: I play more linearly on the archtop. More lines, like a saxophone player. Although, I’ve been working on some chord solos. One of the greatest guys doing that now is Russell Malone. He’s brilliant. He’s doing that on the archtop, with a pick – that’s not easy. I find the chord-solo stuff, and the combination chords and linear things are easier on the classical guitar.

SK: Mike, What about you? MG: I would agree with Bill. It has to be a completely different feel – you don’t want to be swinging. I’m always amazed the way classical guitarists play it the way it is. And the time is not stiff, yet it’s perfect. The whole flow is so beautiful when it’s done right. God help you if you’re a jazz player trying to swing. Gene is the only one who makes it work. (to Gene) When you blend some of those things, like when you’re playing “How Insensitive” and you lead it into Chopin! It’s just great. GB: Bill is using more classical stuff in his gigs MG: Yeah, I heard him doing it the other night. I told him it was fabulous. (to Bill) Remember, when you Just Jazz Guitar

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played the Capriccio? GB: Marvelous, for an old guy. All: (laughter – lots of it) BW: Yeah, when I order three minute eggs, they make me pay in advance.

Gene, Bill and Mike

(Author’s note: In fairness to Bill, he’s really not an “old guy” – no matter how well he plays classical repertoire. Let’s say he’s an excellent and exuberant example of macho middle age.)

BW: At 9 years old, I taught myself and played by ear. I played professionally very young; but couldn’t read music. In my twenties, I studied with some fine jazz guitarists, but it didn’t come easily. I studied classical guitar to become a better musician. When I heard Julian Bream and John Williams, I thought, “How the hell could I do that?” And the written music seemed impossible. Yasha Kofman helped me stay calm and practice very slowly. If you can’t play it slow, you can’t play it fast. Yasha is my main man. (www.classicalguitarny.com) SK: Actually every time I’ve heard you, you were wonderful. BW: Thanks. I love the music, and I get a lot of joy from it. Classical guitar is worth the effort. Charlie Byrd came to one of my gigs. On a break, I told him that playing the tremolo in Tarrega’s Recuerdos de la Alhambra was a bitch and asked if he had any advice. He said, “I know what you mean. I’ve been working on it for forty years.” In other words, they don’t give it away.

SK: This question is addressed to everybody. Do you find yourself drawn mostly to repertoire written specifically for the guitar, or are you equally attracted to transcribed pieces that were originally composed for other instruments? GB: I don’t look at anything written for guitar anymore. I just like to do my own arrangements. I did go through

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a period when I studied the repertoire – the Sor Studies, pieces by Lennox Berkeley. Then I started doing my own transcriptions and arrangements Rachmaninoff “Vocalise”, Chopin, stuff that really appealed to me. For a while I did do the repertoire, a lot of it. “Asturias” and all that stuff. Never got to be that great at it.

SK: Mike, what about you? MG: I’m pretty much drawn to the repertoire; but to me the most important things are the transcriptions. I’d like to get my hands on some the transcriptions by Julian Bream. The way he plays it makes all the difference – and where he plays it. It’s so important. When you, yourself, transcribe a piece, you control the way it sounds on the guitar. Then you’ll hear somebody play a different transcription of the same piece. and the two will sound completely different. Maybe there are voices that you missed or something else. I’m in “copycat land.” I always want to find the transcription I like best, that sounds good. I wouldn’t even dare to do stuff on my own.

pieces. If anything, it adds some colors to them. I feel blessed with a certain amount of taste that has been developed over the years. What I’m trying to say is that I think I know when something is okay when I’ve put my individual stamp on it. Just the idea of playing that piece is a gift.

Gene and Bill

SK: When you’re attempting to stay close to the composer’s intentions, is it analogous to, perhaps, a judge in a courtroom talking about the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit of the law? SK: Bill? GB: Maybe, yeah. It may not be a literal, note-for-note BW: I play traditional pieces as written. I would love to interpretation, but you really get the spirit of the piece be able to arrange like Gene. coming across. And since we’re all jazz players, it’s part of our creativity to do something with a piece. We do it SK: (to BW) Are you most attracted to pieces that with standards. Why not do it with a classical piece? were originally composed for the guitar, or could you First the piece has to appeal to you. Then you think, ”I’d be equally motivated to play a Chopin Mazurka or like to play that.” Then you work out something. There perhaps a Gymnopedie by Satie? are certain things that you want to keep in the piece. You BW: If it sounds pretty, I try to play it. don’t want to depart too much. Take the Chopin Prelude that the bossa nova “How Insensitive” is based on. You SK: Gene, when you’re transcribing a piece, how wouldn’t want to change anything in that. much do you feel obligated to shape your transcription so that it will conform with the intentions of the SK: Have any of you ever been confronted with a sitcomposer? uation in which you have wanted to write a tranGB: I feel you have to maintain the integrity of the scription of a piece that was originally composed for piece, no matter what. Obviously, there are certain lim- a strictly monophonic instrument or one that is itations on the guitar; but I believe you can play any- essentially monophonic? thing on the guitar. You could do “The Rite of Spring” BW: The most important thing is that on a restaurant on the guitar, if you really worked at it. You might leave gig, no matter what classical piece you’re playing, you out some notes, but what you capture is the essence of have to be able to segue into “Happy Birthday”. the harmony, the essence of the piece. Maybe insert All: Laughter – and nods of agreement. some of your own colors that would work nicely. There are various pieces that I’ve recorded like “Traumerei” SK: Here’s a question for everybody. During the by Schumann. I put some nice colors in there that Baroque Era, the featured instrumentalist in a conSchumann would have liked. (laughs) I really feel that certo would, if able, take an improvised solo. For way. It doesn’t upset the piece; but it also puts my little example, during the final episode at the end of the stamp on it. It’s hard to play the Chopin Preludes on solo first movement in a concerto grosso (which was writguitar. I’ve changed the harmonies on a number of ten in ritornello form), the soloist would be given a things. It doesn’t seem to harm the integrity of the cadenza in which to improvise a solo or play one that

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was improvisatory. When you play a classical piece, do you ever take an improvised solo? BW: No. MG: No, it wouldn’t work for me. GB: With the stuff I’ve worked out, I’m trying to be true to the piece. I have to be true to the arrangement. If I don’t do that, I feel bad.

SK: Let’s move on, then. Do you find that there is a difference in left-hand technique that might be influenced by the nature of the repertoire, or the physical construction of the fingerboard of the classical versus the archtop? GB: I change between guitars, and take both guitars with me in a lot of situations. Because I started on the archtop when I was seven, and was studying with Johnny Smith when I was thirteen, the techniques I learned in those days are still with me. It doesn’t bother me to switch guitars: but if I didn’t practice on the classical guitar all the time, it’s gone overnight.

SK: What about you, Bill? BW: In classical repertoire, especially pieces not originally written for guitar, you have to bounce around the neck to get the best sound and the most efficient transitions. The same goes for my playing on the archtop. It’s funny – I played that way by ear before I learned position playing. Classical got me back on the right track. SK: Even when you’re reaching across the fingerboard for chords? BW: No, not at all.

SK: Mike? MG: For me, jazz and classical are very similar on the neck. They’re both precise and clean ways of playing, as opposed to some other genres. If you’re playing rock, you have to do it differently. But for classical and jazz, I find, the technique for each is very similar. GB: When you study classical repertoire, the guitar is used differently from the way most jazz players use it. You might play an entire melody on one string, just to get the color of the string, or you’ll play a line that uses the whole instrument in a different way. You learn a lot about the guitar in terms of possibilities when you study classical repertoire. I think everybody profits from that. When you play only with a pick, you tend to do a lot more position-playing instead of using the whole instrument. I don’t mean exclusively, but quite often. MG: The attack and the colors are different, although the physical act of fretting is similar. Just Jazz Guitar

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SK: Do you feel there is a significant advantage (or compensatory drawback) in the fact that it is easier to play wider intervals with the right hand on the classical guitar as opposed to using a pick on the archtop? GB: It’s certainly easier to play intervals simultaneously on the classical guitar, sixths, sevenths or ninths for example. It’s like that if you want to articulate those sixths, sevenths, or ninths. It’s easier to leap over those strings with your fingers instead of going over them with a pick. Some guys don’t have a problem with that. I think Jack Wilkins doesn’t. Same with Johnny Smith and Mike Gari. SK: Does your classical technique influence the way you approach a solo in a jazz piece because you’re able to do those larger intervals more easily? Do find yourself thinking, perhaps, in larger intervals during your solos? MG: It doesn’t really change anything; but it does give me more range. I’m going to stay with what I want to say within the context of the tune. There’s no point in doing it just for the sake of doing it.

SK: It hasn’t made you hear in a different way? Stoke the imagination a bit? MG: Well, you do have an advantage if your ears and your fingers are going in a certain way and you have the ability to do it. BW: Fingerstyle opens up the possibilities. Checkout Howard Morgen at www.howardmorgen.com. Howie does it all. His new book “Through Chord Melody and Beyond” is a masterpiece. A high point in my life was a guitar duo with Howie and getting to hear him play for 12 years.(Author’s note: Howard Morgen will be participating in the second installment of this article.) MG: Also, when you pluck a chord, you’re playing everything simultaneously, as a piano would. It’s a different sound from what you get when you’re running a pick through the strings. GB: Linearly, I think I tend to slur more on the classical guitar-rest strokes etc. I try to create a swing feel as opposed to trying to articulate every note, although I do that quite a bit sometimes because I practice scales. I never practice the scales with just i m. I use all three fingers. But a lot of times I’ll do the slurring because it tends to lend itself better to jazz lines. When I’m using a pick, I tend to do more alternate picking, unlike Bill, who gets such a great time and feel. I may be wrong about this, but I think he isn’t always going up and down with the pick, getting a lot of strong beats with a down Page 93

pick. (to BW) Am I wrong about that? BW: Actually, I use alternate picking with more emphasis on upstrokes. GB: Well you get a real great feel. I heard that Barney Kessel played nothing but down strokes, or mostly down strokes. I don’t know if it’s true. BW: Charlie Christian, George Barnes. MG: Wow! What a touch they had. GB: The general feeling is that anytime you play just with the thumb, the feel is better. Look at Wes.

SK: Is there any particular area of performance, such as accompaniment, perhaps, that has been influenced by reaching across the genres? BW: I accompany with straight four, comping, riffs, inside lines, walking bass lines, stop time, contrapuntal figures, laying out…. a tradition that goes back a long way. MG: For me it carries over into everything – comping, improvising, backing up somebody. It’s a whole art being an accompanist. What I would like to be able to do-someday, is have those moving lines, which for me originated in classical repertoire. To be able to lead, step back, being together with the singer. GB: I feel I learned so much about the guitar when I decided to slow down and learn the fingerboard in a different way. Instead of learning scales and positions, I started learning the fingerboard as if I were learning where all the white keys were. For example, I’d put two strings together in seconds and thirds. I really learned a lot about the instrument because of the change of technique. It was like I was learning the instrument for the first time. I couldn’t do anything fast. It was so intellectual. I started to really look into what goes into a chord structure: what are the notes, where you find them. Discovering that the open B string is the 7th of C, the

9th of A, the b9 of B flat. Then there are the open string colors that you could get into chords because you’re not just strumming a chord – you’re thinking about the chord structure. It gives you a whole different aspect of the guitar. It is a result of slowing everything down, and that I really want to know what the hell I’m doing. I would do these exercises where I’d play a C scale starting from the 3rd, E, then that E became the 6th of a G

scale, then the 9th of a D scale. You start seeing things in a completely different way. You go up in the key of C and come back in the key of Db. You get all this intellectual knowledge, and after a while you need a psychiatrist. (laughs).

SK: Any further comments, anybody? Anything that I didn’t address? BW: (points to Gene) He’s the master. GB: I would just reiterate what I said. In the process of trying to really learn, it’s important to slow things down. You slow things down to learn a piece, you slow things down to learn about the fingerboard. You learn about harmony beyond chord riffs, and things like that. Then you start to work out pieces because of your background, having studied classical repertoire. You think, “Why don’t I make up my own classical repertoire?” You might do an interpretation of a standard song with your own special arrangement, your own special colors, so you can present it almost like a classical piece. SK: You’ve just described Howard Morgen. GB: He’s been doing it all along. He’s been doing it before anybody. MG: I don’t think you’ll find any player doing jazz these days who is not also interested in playing classical. There are too many advantages. Find me a guy who’s a good jazz player who doesn’t play classical, and I’ll be surprised. GB: I think guitarists like anything that’s played on a guitar.

SK: Yeah, we’re like that. GB: We just love the guitar. As Segovia said, “It’s the only instrument that you caress.”

SK: I want to thank you guys for your time, and for sharing the wealth of your knowledge and experience with JJG readers.

The second segment of Part I took place on August 8, 2008 at the home of the phenomenal Bucky Pizzarelli. Bucky, a true gentleman, is as gracious and erudite as he is talented. The conversation that took place that morning was between Bucky, Mike Gari, and yours truly.

SK: Bucky, did you start off playing either jazz or classical guitar? BP: No. My two uncles were very good players on banjo and guitar. (One of them was a virtuoso mandolin player as well.) The guitar was just being phased in to replace the banjo in bands and orchestras. They both realized that they had to get with the guitar, so that’s what they did. They were always playing at my house on Sundays, and I wanted to join in, so they showed me just the chords to all the songs, so I could sit and strum with them.

SK: So you didn’t have an interest in classical guitar at that time. BP: No, no, no. That came much later. I was about twenty eight years old when I started to play the classical guitar. SK: When you are playing classical repertoire do use a classical guitar? BP: Yes, this one right here. (holds up a guitar made by Jose Rubio)

MG: That’s a great point. It’s the evolution of the guitar. You want to know how it started with the lute, went on to classical, then evolved into all these other styles that we play. Sure, you want to know what came before. BP: So, you could be playing the guitar for four or five years and be playing the first few chords. If you’re playing classical guitar, you’ll be going up there, all over the neck right away. And all of a sudden you know where “that note” is. And that helps your jazz playing.

SK: The classical approach to harmony is linear, horizontal in nature. Does this hold any beneficial influence for a jazz player? BP: The classical guitar has always been a mystery to me. And it still is. You’ll hear chords with only two notes – not a real chord formation. You play a bass note, add a note somewhere, and you have a beautiful chord. SK: This actually would seem like a good time to You would never play a chord like that. You only play it bring up the matter of scordatura. When you see a because it’s in classical repertoire. And that’s what classical piece for which one is instructed to lower makes it beautiful. the sixth string to D, do you lower that string or simply play the notes on the seventh string? If you do SK: (to Bucky) Throughout this interview you have lower the sixth string how do you treat the seventh? been illustrating your points playing musical examBP: If the music tells you to drop that sixth string to D, ples on your guitar. (It’s been a true delight for me, I drop it. I don’t play anything that has a dropped D on and I wish the readers could hear those bits of the seven-string classical. If I did, I would just ignore music.) I’ve noticed that you use a pick instead of the seventh string. your fingers. BP: I do that now. I used to play with my fingers; but I SK: (to Bucky) A few of months ago, when we were lost the use of one finger. It got messed up. So I said to at the West Texas Jazz Society’s jazz party in myself, “Whatever repertoire I have, I could play with a Midland, and I told you that I was doing this article, pick.” you responded as if by reflex. You said, “If you play MG: I’m with you all the way, 100%! I spent so many jazz, you have to play classical.” Would you elabo- years trying to be a real classical player, but it was rate on that now please? impossible. I knew I’d never get up to the level of some BP: You have to start beginners at the classical guitar on of these guys. the six string instrument as standardized by Segovia. Before he did that it was all different tunings. I think it's SK: (to Bucky) The other day I asked Mike, Bill, and very important to know what was being played before Gene if they only play what was composed for the the guitar came into being. The classical guitar is the classical guitar, or are they equally attracted to transtandard instrument. When you first start you're scriptions of pieces originally written for other playinging on the first three strings and on the first three instruments. Where do you stand? or four frets. And you’re always dying to play some- BP: I stick to what was written for the classical guitar. thing here or something there, (laughing) you just don’t When I performed in a club last night, I played three know how the hell to do it. Classical repertoire puts you pieces. It was without a microphone, in a little saloon. there right away. I showed my daughter some little Everybody kept quiet. I saved all the other stuff for the thing. I put her fingers on the strings, and it was all over jazz guitar. But when I play classical guitar, I try to play the guitar. If you want to play classical guitar, there are the music exactly the way it was written. beautiful little melodies – “Adelita”, and things like that. And you start playing a high note like that. It teach- SK: To clarify my question, Beethoven did not write es you as you learn the repertoire. It’s teaching you specifically for the guitar, but there are guitar transcriptions of some of his pieces. Are you more where the guitar is, and where you are on the guitar. SK: I see that you also have a seven string classical guitar. BP: My son, John, brought that back from Brazil. The maker gave him two guitars, one for me and one for him.

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attracted to pieces originally composed for the guitar, or are you equally attracted to transcriptions? BP: I go for the ones that were written specifically for the guitar. SK: So you wouldn’t touch any of the Beethoven transcriptions, for example? BP: I dabbled with them, but they didn’t hit me. It’s just a matter of personal taste. MG: I play Bach

SK: Some of the Bach pieces really don’t have to go terribly far to be playable on the guitar. For example the Prelude for Violin in E Major (Partita Number 3) is the same piece as the Prelude from the Lute Suite in E Major. MG: It’s very much like jazz, in the way all the harmonies move. SK: What do you feel the harmonies have in common with jazz? BP: You could take the harmonies of Bach’s pieces and put a chord symbol over each one. You might find a G chord with the note B in the bass. That’s exactly what you have to know when you’re playing jazz. When you’re backing up a singer, you have to understand what note to put in the bass.

SK: Bach was the greatest keyboardist of his era. Most people do not know that during the Baroque, it was not unusual for a featured instrumentalist to have a cadenza in which he would take an improvised solo. This was one way in which Bach displayed his skills. Improvisatory solos were written out for those soloists who could not improvise. BP: (laughing) You called those “play at your own risk.”

SK: Mike, what about you? MG: I don’t think I would do it; but I sure wouldn’t condemn it.

SK: Johnny Smith wrote a wonderful transcription of Debussy’s miniature from the Second Book of Preludes, called “The Girl with the Flaxen Hair.” Has either of you tried to do something like that? BP: Not really. I tried to do something, but it was too difficult and I laid off. I think it was in G flat.

SK: Why didn’t you change the key? BP: A song is written in a certain key for a certain reason. For example, I play “The Bad and the Beautiful” in the key of A. It was written in the key of A flat. I’ve had arrangers come up to me and tell me that I’m supposed to play it in A flat. A guy writes a piece in a specific key for a reason, but it sounds better on the guitar in A.

SK: I knew David Raksin, who wrote that score. He was a really nice guy. I’d like to have gotten his views on the key change. BP: He didn’t write that many songs, but the ones he did are classics. He was brilliant.

SK: Back to the topic of transposition. Are there any mitigating circumstances under which you would write an arrangement in a key other than the original? BP: No, none. No mitigating circumstances.

SK: Bucky, you use a pick when playing the classical guitar. Mike, you use a pick plus fingers. How did you decide on how you would approach right-hand technique? BP: I don’t have full use of the “m” finger. It’s not an injury – it’s just old age. (laughs)

SK: Exactly. Do you ever take an improvised solo during a classical piece? MG: No! BP: I might jazz it up.

SK: If it were not for the physical decline of that finger, would you still be using a pick on the classical instrument? BP: I’d just be using my fingers. I wouldn’t use a pick.

SK: Would you give the eighth notes a dotted eighthsixteenth feel? BP: Yeah.

SK: I’d like to hear that. And I want to say that if anybody deserved the right to brag, you do.

SK: How? BP: I can’t really explain it. I’ll do it with the inflection of jazz. Maybe with Villa-Lobos, and stuff like that. Not changing the notes, just the way you milk it.

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SK: How does this affect the element of tone color for you? BP: Well, I made a record; it’s not out yet. In the middle of the record I play three pieces. I’m not bragging; I’m just saying, you don’t know if it’s fingers or not. Just Jazz Guitar

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BP: (Laughs and makes a dismissive hand gesture as if to say “oh please!”)

SK: Did you make a conscious effort to simulate the sound of fingers while you were using a pick? BP: Yeah, I was well aware of what sound you had to get when you played with your fingers. The rest stroke and the free stroke, you have to think of that. All the time. You’re playing the melody, you have to give it the rest stroke.

SK: Mike, since you use the pick and the fingernails, do you notice a significant difference regarding the color produced by the two different striking materials? MG: Most of the time the pick is taking the place of the thumb. The only thing I dread is that sometimes I have to use my pinky. Only I wouldn’t be trying to play the Tarrega tremolo study with my pinky! I just decided that there’s no way I could be playing classical the way I should be. So I’m going to play it the way I’m comfortable, and the way it’s enjoyable. I’m not going to say that I’m performing it, or trying to make it sound like Williams or Bream. I’ll play the piece and love it, and the sound will be as close as I could get it to what it should be. BP: If you want to hear a good sound track buy “For Whom the Bell Tolls.”The guitar is the opposite of a classical guitar, although it’s a gut string guitar. It’s plaintive. It’s like he’s playing in an alleyway. No vibrato – nothing. (picks up a guitar and demonstrates his point – beautifully) Simplicity! If you want to hear a real soundtrack, buy the movie, it’s available.

left hand technique is very different on a classical guitar in a particular circumstance. The composers, who were also virtuoso guitarists, would look, at times, for a certain tone color. This might require a melody to be played on one string, as opposed to playing it across the strings. Has this had any influence on the way you approach melody while playing jazz? BP: Yes. Some of the guitar players I’ve worked with approach it this way, and when you do, boy, you’re singing it. You could also describe each string as violin range, viola, or cello.That’s what they do with a cello – the same thing. You want it to sing. A guitar is a percussive instrument; the note dies out right away. SK: Mike, do you ever find yourself playing a melody on one string? MG: Sure, if it goes in that direction.

SK: Has your classical experience influenced your approach to jazz? BP: I think so. When you’re playing behind a singer, for example, sometimes the classical guitar is calling you, saying, “You better do it this way!” (laughs). Tony Mottola and I did play for a couple of opera singers when we were on the “Tonight Show.” I made some records with Dawn Upshaw. I also played Patrice Munsel’s show for a year. I was always aware of the classical even though I played the show on the archtop.

SK: What would you do if you were playing the archtop and wanted to get a classical-style sound ? Would you tweak the amplifier? BP: When I was playing behind her everything was SK: How has the left hand technique employed for acoustic. I think an electric guitar is ugly when you’re classical guitar influenced you when you are playing playing behind an opera singer. It would be out-of-charan archtop? acter. BP: When I’m playing a six-string guitar, I’m always thinking of F-G-A and so on right down the line. When SK: What if you’re backing up an opera singer doing I play a jazz guitar (seven string), I’m thinking of a C all a jazz tune or a standard? the way up the board. I think that way. I do it over Eb BP: I recorded with Roberta Peters. She sang an Italian and so forth. On a classical guitar, I’m thinking melodi- song (arranged by Al Cohn). If an opera singer wants to cally. Even on one string sometimes. do a standard or a jazz tune, I use the archtop, unampliMG: When I’m playing classical guitar, working on a fied. couple of pieces, I’ll go back to the other guitar (the archtop) and I’ll be real strong; really good. SK: Mike, how have you felt the influence? MG: The intervals, the colors, the subtleties. I think it BP: Oh yeah, yeah. MG: You were just going through all the moving lines gets naturally incorporated into my playing. You don’t want your playing to be all on one level. There’s no betand all that stuff. It’s like cleansing the palette. ter example than all the different moods and colors you SK: The other day either Bill or Gene said that the get playing classical. As Bucky says, it’s part of the evoJust Jazz Guitar

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lution of the guitar. You have to look at it, even if you don’t spend your life doing it. BP: It brings sense to the guitar. And now the kids are all starting on the electric, and forgetting how the acoustic sounds, even on the archtop. MG: Which is more beautiful actually. BP: That’s right.

SK: I’m glad you guys said that because I never let my students start on an electric. If a student starts on an electric, he or she won’t learn how to coax a beautiful sound out of a guitar. BP: There you go! SK: I think I’ve covered all of today’s questions, so is there anything either of you would like to add? BP: Regarding accompaniment: When you’re backing up a singer you have to look at the lead sheet and learn the song the way it was written, and take it from there. As I said at the beginning, it might just be a third in the bass, that will get you something beautiful. It's going to lead to something better. Then you build, and build , and build. If you’re not aware of those actions, you’re not going to back up the singer properly. You can’t just play chord symbols behind a singer.

SK: I want to express my deep appreciation and respect to both of you for participating in this article, and sharing your expertise. Just so the readers know, throughout this interview Bucky played his classical guitar several times in order to provide musical examples that would illustrate his statements. I’m going to call Ed Benson to suggest he transform JJG into an “audio” magazine. MG: That would be cool! BP: Yeah!

Laurence Wexer, Ltd. Fine Fretted Instruments Fine Fretted Instruments

Archtop-Electric & Acoustic

1990 Benedetto Tal Farlow style sunburst, Mint, Hard, $8,500.00. An unusual guitar handmade by Bendetto. Laminate body with Tal Farlow body scroll.Two bartolini humbuckers. Cool and one of a kind. (Price Reduced from $9500)

1999 Buscarino Artisan custom Blue, Excellent, Original Hard, $5,500.00. An upgraded version of Buscarino's Artisan model. 16" wide, solid carved guitar with fancy woods ,extra binding, Piezo and Humbucking pickups in a blue finish. Near mint condition. Fine playability. A nice handmade guitar.

1996 Campellone Special Custom Blue, Excellent, GigBag, $6,750.00. A unique custom Campellone. Ordered in Blue with a triangular sound hole, X bracing, 1 11/16" nut, 24 3/4" scale, 20 1/2 " x 17" body. This guitar is a superior example of this builders work. It is also equipped with a vintage DeArmond™ pickup for that real traditional jazz sound.In near mint condition, no issues. An excellent instrument.

1984 D'Aquisto New Yorker Classic 12 String blonde, exc, Original Hard, $40,000.00. A unique guitar! 16 inches wide, noncutaway body, with an oval sound hole. Maple overlay on headstock, wood binding, and other NY Classic features. I believe this guitar to be the First instrument built with NY Classic features. Blonde finish, beautiful imported maple back, sides, and neck, Macassar ebony pickguard and tailpiece. Great sound. Near mint condition. 1966 Epiphone Howard Roberts blonde, Near Mint, Original Hard, $3,850.00. A super clean Epi Howard Roberts, single floating Johnny Smith pickup. All original and perfect setup. Blonde top (label says N). A rare and desireable model. Only some minor checking in the finish, no issues ior repairs.

1966 Epiphone Triumph custom sunburst, Excellent, Hard, $5,000.00. An unusual Epiphone cutaway guitar! The label says Triumph, but the guitar is a 17" wide cutaway with an oval hole and a floating Johnny Smith pickup. It is really more of a larger Howard Roberts. 25 1/2" scale 1 5/8" width nut. A litlle neck wear and some light checking, but no repairs or cracks. These were originally ordered by Bob Cavanaugh of E.U. Wurlitzers in Boston. A dozen or so have been made. Bob installed a pickup with his own large pickguard that would accomodate standard size pots. Perfect Pro refret by Norio Imai. Plays great and sounds round and full plugged in.

1968 Gibson L-5CESN Blonde, Excellent, Original Hard, $11,500.00. A very nice Sharp cutaway 60s electric L-5. Plays easily, this is a clean guitar. Replica pickguard. Tiny filled strap pin hiole, otherwise all straight. The narrower nut, but not a tiny neck. Very comfortable feel. Perfect Pro refret by Norio Imai. Effortless to play. Very Blonde. (Price reduced)

1924 Gibson L-5 sunburst, Excellent, Original Hard, $48,000.00. Signed March 31, 1924 Lloyd Loar L-5. Very fine original condition. No cracks, all original hardware and finish. These are quite rare and are Archtop guitars that started it all. These were the first F-hole archtop guitar to be produced and have a unique warm tone with amazing bottom end and projection. Spruce top, Birch back, maple sides and neck, varnish finish, Virzi tone producer.

1929 Gibson L-5 sunburst, Very Good, Hard, $8,000.00. Fine sounding 16" L-5. "The Gibson" logo, pearl blocks starting at the third fret. The guitar is in structurally excellent shape, though it does have a few small repaired back cracks, and one repaired top crack under the pickguard. These are in the dark part of the burst and hard to see. The tailpiece is replaced with one from the period. Nice modern feeling neck with a slight V shape. Excellent volume and punch. 1957 Gibson Byrdland sunburst, Excellent, Hard, $8,950.00. A fine sounding and playing 50s Byrdland with Alnico pickups. Pro refret and one small repaired crack near the bridge. Very attractive guitar with nice curly maple and lovely warm tone. (Price Reduced, was $10.5)

1960 Gibson L-5CESN Blonde, Excellent, Original Hard, $25,500.00. A PAF equipped electric L-5CESN. Round cutaway, factory stereo varitone. The guitar is well set up and plays beautifully. Vintage tailpiece replaces a bigsby. Part of the lower treble side was pro refinished by Cris Mirabella. An excellent instrument.

1961 Gibson L-5CES sunburst, Excellent, Original Hard, $21,500.00. Fine condition, Excellent plus, sharp cutaway PAF equipped L-5. No repairs. Original factory Stereo varitone. Attractive woods. two piece back. Some light playing wear on the neck, pro refret. A rare and great sounding jazz guitar.(Price Reduced from 24K)

1941 Stromberg Deluxe Blonde, Excellent, Original Hard, $29,500.00. A very rare single transverse braced Blonde Deluxe. The guitar is in fine original condtion with no repairs, except pro refret. Perfect action and wonderful classic jazz tone. Freddie Green!!! Attractive curly maple plus documentation from the family of the original owner.

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JJG is usually shipped by the 30th of the month PRIOR to the cover dates. Cover dates are November, February, May and August. Please call regarding non–delivery ONLY if you don’t receive an issue by the 30th of the month of the COVER date. It can take up to 4 weeks to reach all subscribers via bulk mail. Please check JJG's website or phone for an update on shipping information. If you move and don't notify JJG, your issue WILL NOT be forwarded. JJG is shipped by Bulk mail and it is not forwarded. It will be thrown out.

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1949 Stromberg G-3 sunburst, Excellent, Hard, $18,500.00. A rare noncutaway G-3, with single transverse brace and 17 3/8" body width. Great playability and the classic jazz sound these are known for. Headstock overlay was professionally replaced, but a very clean and fine instrument. 2006 Trenier Magnolia sunburst, Brand New, Hard, $5,000.00. A guitar by a fine young luthier. Excellent craftsmanship and sound. X braced oval hole archtop. Engelman spruce top, European maple back and sides. 1 3/4" nut width 25 1/4" scale length. Fine tone and setup.

2008 Trenier Rosine Blonde, Brand New, $7,000.00. This is a brand new Rosine made in the D'Aquisto AvantGarde style. This guitar is a fabulous creation that comes amazingly close to capturing the sound and vibe of a real D'Aquisto. Beautiful woods and craftsmanship. Imported woods, Art Deco™ headstock, 1 3/4" nut 25 1/2" scale. 18" wide/Big and Blonde.

2000 Triggs Custom Orange, Mint, Original Hard, $7,000.00. A beautiful hand made Custom Triggs archtop. Super flamey maple back sides and neck. Johnny Smith style, with a Benedetto floating pickup, 25" scale, 1 3/4" nut width. Effortless to play. A lovely instument.

Phone: 212-532-2994 or 212-696-4701 Fax: 212-696-5384 e mail: [email protected] website: www.wexerguitars.com

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February 2009