Mr Simon Schulz - Parliament of Victoria

5 downloads 157 Views 32KB Size Report
Sep 19, 2012 ... Rather than coming out with a big stick if something went wrong, initially they ... especially being small, that we do test that quite frequently.
CORRECTED VERSION

RURAL AND REGIONAL COMMITTEE Inquiry into the impact of food safety regulation on farms and other businesses Camperdown — 19 September 2012

Members Mr D. Drum Mr G. Howard Mr A. Katos

Mr I. Trezise Mr P. Weller

Chair: Mr P. Weller Deputy Chair: Mr G. Howard Staff Executive Officer: Ms L. Topic Research Officer: Mr P. O’Brien

Witness Mr S. Schulz, Schulz Organic Farms Pty Ltd.

19 September 2012

Rural and Regional Committee

21

The ACTING CHAIR (Mr Drum) — Welcome to the Rural and Regional Committee. All evidence given today is protected by parliamentary privilege, so we can say whatever we like. However, if you step outside this precinct, you will not be covered. Would you be good enough to give us your full name and address and the name of the organisation you are representing? If you could then give us a bit of background about your business — where you are at and how you comply with all the various safety requirements, food handling safety and all of those things — we will then ask you a few questions. Mr SCHULZ — No worries; just prompt me if I miss anything. I am Simon Schulz from . I work for Schulz Organic Farms Pty Ltd; I have been running it for six years now. The family has been in organic dairy for 41 years this year and has been a part of various cheese manufacturing facilities since 1984, which will be 28 years this year. The family has a lot of experience in cheese making and dairy manufacture as well as in the farm side of things. There is a fair bit of experience, and I have had experience probably in the last seven or eight years now. Your other question was about — — The ACTING CHAIR — How you go with complying with all the regulations for food safety. Mr SCHULZ — When we first started, thankfully I had family who had had experience with Dairy Food Safety and so forth. Dairy Food Safety came to the table very early on and assisted us in developing our food safety programs rather than going through consultancies. One of the officers, who retired probably a year after we started, very much handfed and educated me in how to develop a food safety program and in hazard analysis and gave me knowledge and understanding of why the practices that I had been taught in the past few years were applicable to food safety. I felt that was instrumental in establishing my business. As I have grown in terms of size and experience, Dairy Food Safety has been there a lot of the way just as a sounding board. Rather than coming out with a big stick if something went wrong, initially they were always guiding and allowing me to improve through advice and through direction to other experts and so forth. I think the way they helped us to set up was very handy. Without that help, things would certainly have been a lot harder. The ACTING CHAIR — How do you go in relation to testing regimes? How often do you test your batches? Mr SCHULZ — We test depending on the cycle and on the volume we are putting through. We test every fortnight or every four batches, depending on which one comes first, which has been quite easy to do. We set it on a fortnightly scale. We know our production, and as that increases we will then look at either increasing or decreasing that, depending on how production goes. The ACTING CHAIR — You do not find every fortnight overly onerous? You do not find it a bit — — Mr SCHULZ — In thinking about our liquid milk, we are testing every 4000 bottles that we produce, whereas a large company might produce 40 000 bottles a day and maybe test that one batch or maybe every second batch — I am not sure about their regimes. Our testing regime seems to be a lot higher — — The ACTING CHAIR — In ratio. Mr SCHULZ — In ratio, yes, to efficiency. This has a greater cost for us. I still think it is important, especially being small, that we do test that quite frequently. Dairy Food Safety have been quite flexible. Initially when you start off, your testing regime is very high to prove that the procedures you have got in place are working, but as you develop a bit of history with those testing results, they do give you written permission to reduce that to a more sustainable level. I am certainly not complaining; once a fortnight for me, for my testing, is not prohibitive or restrictive in any way. In relation to the bigger companies, it certainly costs more in that it is a lot higher for me per unit. The ACTING CHAIR — Simon, how often do you get audited? Mr SCHULZ — We get audited twice yearly. The ACTING CHAIR — Who does that for you? 19 September 2012

Rural and Regional Committee

22

Mr SCHULZ — They contracted SAI Global. The ACTING CHAIR — So they get SAI Global to come in and audit you? Mr SCHULZ — That is right, yes. The ACTING CHAIR — Is the audit mainly interested in the premises or in your bookkeeping and your process? Mr SCHULZ — It depends on the auditor. The auditors I have had over the years have had different backgrounds and experiences. Some who have been in the dairy manufacturing area know what they are looking for, whereas we have had some from other industries or scientific backgrounds who stick more to the documents and the paper trail, I suppose, and not so much the premises. But we have had a variety as well, over the years, of different auditors. I think they usually cycle. We might have one auditor for two set audits, and then another one will come in. That is usually good because when the auditor comes in, again they are not there with a big stick. They certainly go through your paper trail and look at the premises, but they give you recommendations as well. They pull you up where you have gone wrong and they document that and you have to rectify that before next time, but they also give you advice as well. Having that different experience from different auditors is, I think, invaluable. The ACTING CHAIR — That is good to hear. That is not what we have been hearing all the time. We have been hearing probably more of the big stick with the auditors or that they are simply a little bit distant, and the audit process seems to be different among the different food sectors. The meat auditing process seems to be significantly different from the dairy food products, which is good. Two aspects to your business: if you are selling to the high-end market, how important is your health record? I imagine it is critical. Mr SCHULZ — It is, and actually the health record does not just start at the processing; it starts back on the farm. If the cows are healthy and if our record is of the cows being healthy and the grass and nutrition being good, that translates into healthy milk. I can give you one example: we had a test of our raw milk recently, and we tested it for the same pathogens we are required to test for in pasteurised milk. The test result showed that there were no pathogens existing in the raw milk, which was surprising to me. With listeria being one of the main ones we test for, and it coming from dirt, and cows being in dirt, and there being no treatment process before pasteurisation, I was very surprised that there was no listeria detected at all. Also with E. coli, being faeces borne, again there was no traceable element of that in there. Total plate counts on that were fairly similar — just a little bit higher than pasteurised — but to me it emphasised how important it is to have healthy cows and healthy milk. All the sanitation and cleaning side of things helps, but if you do not start off with a clean, raw product, then it compromises your quality all the way through. The ACTING CHAIR — Yes, and a second aspect which flows into the first one is: how important is your raw organic brand? Mr SCHULZ — Very important. The way we process things is different to the bigger companies, but the organic side of things certainly gives us an element of differentiation. The CHAIR — In a practical sense, if I have the farm next door and I am farming through conventional practices, what am I doing differently from you so that you can use the organic brand? Mr SCHULZ — There are no synthetic fertilisers used. The ACTING CHAIR — On your pastures? Mr SCHULZ — On the pastures. All the feed that we source, if not grown on the farm, is all certified as well. So again there are no GMOs used on the farm, there are no artificial fertilisers or pesticides or anything like that. If the thistles grow, we get out there with a hoe and hoe them rather than spraying them. It is just the way I know. I was born into it, so I know no different in terms of organics. That would be the main difference: no herbicides, no pesticides, chemicals restricted to just cleaning the equipment in the dairy as well as the factory, and that is pretty much it. Everything else is sourced from the farm.

19 September 2012

Rural and Regional Committee

23

Mr KATOS — Simon, we heard some evidence in Castlemaine about a factory that was trying to bring in a process that was new to Australia that had not been done here before. It was basically maturing their cheese on wood. Mr SCHULZ — Yes. Mr KATOS — Basically they were told, ‘You go off and prove that that’s safe’, and as a small producer that was a very onerous task to do. Have you had any experience with that sort of thing? Mr SCHULZ — No. I have certainly done some research into it. I am looking at some research now into a chemical-free cleaning system. We are in the process of designing and building a new factory. We are trying to help the environment in terms of our designs and so forth and energy recapture as well as new technologies that are existent overseas or maybe not even existent over there — some of the systems we are looking at. It is funny, when you mentioned the cheese maturing, when my grandfather first started he was maturing cheese on the back veranda, on timber, and then progressed into a factory. I know his stories of dairy food safety are very much of helping him, and actually the same fellow who helped him set up was the fellow who helped me set up as well. But back to your question, we have experience of those technologies that are overseas but not here in Australia yet, and we are looking at them at the moment. Mr KATOS — Basically the evidence we were given was that the regulator was not very helpful in that sense. Mr SCHULZ — I probably understand, from a regulator’s point of view, that you need to prove your method rather than when my grandfather did it — the experience he told me was that back when he was doing it the regulator was very strict on following a particular set of guidelines, and you could not deviate at all, whereas I think nowadays, as long as you can prove that the end product is safe and clean, then you can pretty much — it is prescribed, but there are a lot more variables there that you can use for innovations and so forth. I feel that I can innovate without being restricted by Dairy Food Safety as long as I can prove that the product is safe at the end of the day and the quality is there. That is more important for me. The ACTING CHAIR — So do you test every batch or every fourth batch? Mr SHULZ — No. Generally every fourth batch or every fortnight, depending on which is first. The ACTING CHAIR — Where do you send that for testing? Mr SCHULZ — We send that to DTS, Dairy Technical Services up in Melbourne. The ACTING CHAIR — There is no capacity for that to be done locally? Mr SCHULZ — We had been sending it to some of the bigger factories locally, but we found that the results were not as successful as doing it up in Melbourne and that they would forget — they were often just freighting it up to the same company that we were going to, and it was costing us more, so we thought we would go direct. We would like to have our own lab, but we would probably only do some basic testing; just non-pathogens, that sort of thing. The ACTING CHAIR — It is interesting, Simon, that you feel free and encouraged to innovate, and you have an opportunity to move into a different brand or a different style or type of cheese. Mr SCHULZ — Yes, I do feel encouraged. Admittedly I have not gone down the process of trying to validate what I do yet, so I suppose I cannot speak from that experience of the Castlemaine people, but in terms of research I certainly feel like I am being encouraged. Dairy Food Safety now have a forum online, and we can post questions there about new technologies and rebound from Dairy Food Safety’s own experience, but it is also sort of like a social network in a way that we can draw off the experience of others without a competitive nature. Mr KATOS — Some of the frustration around that example of maturing on wood, — whether that product is from Italy or France, it is sitting on a supermarket shelf here in Victoria, but the process has not been proven from there either. That was where a lot of the frustration was coming from — you are going through these 19 September 2012

Rural and Regional Committee

24

rigours, yet we have an importer that is bringing it in and it is not going through the same rigours and regime that you are. Mr SCHULZ — I think you could probably apply the same thing to raw cheese and to raw dairy products, because especially in Europe and America it is allowed. They have testing regimes for it, whereas in Australia it is a blanket ban, and we cannot innovate down that path and compete with some of the overseas brands. The ACTING CHAIR — Do those products end up on our shelves, Simon? Mr SCHULZ — Yes. I believe France is exporting some raw cheeses. The ACTING CHAIR — Into Australia? Mr SCHULZ — Into Australia, yes. The ACTING CHAIR — That is raw milk — not pasteurised? Mr SCHULZ — Raw milk and unpasteurised cheese. The ACTING CHAIR — And yet we have a blanket ban on that processing. Mr SCHULZ — Basically, yes. I think it was being reviewed, but I have not heard the extent of that. If Europe can do it — I think we can do better than Europe given the opportunity, for sure. And raw product coming from Australia is going to be a lot better than it coming from a barn-fed animal that is sitting in France or Germany. The ACTING CHAIR — Are there any aspects of the regulations surrounding your processing or your sales? Are there any hoops that you have to jump through that are causing you concern, or are you pretty much on top of what you are doing? Mr SCHULZ — We are pretty well on top now. I think the first few years were difficult; it was a learning experience as well as jumping through hoops. That was difficult, but it certainly did not prevent me from continuing. It was not that hard. The ACTING CHAIR — Are you based on farm now, or are you — — Mr SCHULZ — No, we are based on farm still. The ACTING CHAIR — You are still based on farm? Mr SCHULZ — Yes. We are still based on the farm. We have a milk line that runs from the dairy to the factory, so we get the freshest milk possible. It is important for my products to have a short supply chain. It helps with energy as well if you are not needing to cool down the milk and so forth. We have had to prove certain things in that regard too. The regulations state that the milk has to be below 4 degrees before leaving the farm, and we argued that if were taking it within 15 to 20 minutes of it coming out of the cow and heating it straight back up, what was the point of cooling it down? It was just a matter of proving that the product was still safe once we have done our testing, and then we get by. It has worked. The ACTING CHAIR — And your expansion will be on farm as well? Mr SCHULZ — That one is undecided. We have a factory on the farm already, and we need another one in terms of capital, but it would make the property unsellable in the future if we ever decided to, so we will probably look elsewhere. The ACTING CHAIR — Are there any final messages that you would like to leave the committee in relation to what we have been talking about, or are you okay? Mr SCHULZ — Just the raw milk, I think. If Europe can do it — and it is not just the cheese; it is milk as well. In Italy, France and the UK you can buy raw milk from a vending machine, which I think is terribly unsanitary. It is allowed, and we do not hear about a massive number of deaths and sickness that everyone is trying to scare us about in relation to drinking raw milk. I know every farmer in the local area who has a dairy 19 September 2012

Rural and Regional Committee

25

farm would have drunk their own milk, and I think they are some of the healthiest people in the world. There is evidence to show that raw milk is better for you than pasteurised milk in terms of nutritional value, but we cannot do anything about that at the moment. Hopefully you guys can. The ACTING CHAIR — I think it is a predominantly federal issue, but we will take it on board as evidence anyway, and it is consistent with what we have heard at a number of other hearings around the state. Simon, thanks very much for dropping in. It sounds like you have done a mighty job with your family over the years. Again, pass on our congratulations to them for having world-class produce out of this area; it is a mighty effort. Thank you very much for giving us your evidence. We will make a copy of the transcript available to you in about two weeks. Perhaps you would have a look over it to make sure there are no typographical errors, although the substance will remain the same. Mr SCHULZ — No worries. The ACTING CHAIR — Again, thanks for coming in, and good luck. Committee adjourned.

19 September 2012

Rural and Regional Committee

26